Is there anything really wrong with the idea of an evil Paladin?

A point a few people made in passing I think that deserves more attention is also the fact that in DnD, and in society as well, those who were at the top are considered to have the ability to fall farther, harder, and deeper than other individuals.

So the noble hero who goes evil is MORE evil than the guy who was evil since day one. It's as if the turncoat aspect of betraying the ideals of good are a worse crime, or perhaps an impetuous to spur on greater depths of depravity.
 

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Thain said:
I am normally appalled by the thought of Anti-Paladins, but there is one example that does justify the attempt and making the concept a reality:

Lodoss11-38tn.jpg


Ashram, if he ain't a LE Paladin, no one is!

picture and link don't work for me....

For those of you who've played WarCraft 3, what alignment would you say Arthas is after he becomes a pawn of the Lich King? (He is then defined as a "Death Knight"


(OH, SORRY! I'm using my wifes computer. This is MerakSpielman, not Emerald.)
 

Elder-Basilisk said:
Now, leaving aside the sticky problem of identifying the ideal of law and differentiating between it and good, it is clear that the paladin believes in and has a cause that is other than himself. A paladin can be forced to choose between doing what he believes in and doing what would be most advantageous for himself. Because good is good, such motivation is possible.

That is not true of evil.

I think your position fits a generic D&D campaign pretty well, as these games tend to make good and evil into 'facts' about the world. I'm less sure of your egoist (Ayn Rand-like) stand on the nature of evil, but either way, the question is how would you handle a Nazi Paladin?
 

So we are looking for a good name for a person who wears armor, rides a horse and is a dealer of death and causes pain and suffering as a matter of principle. He might serve an evil god he might not.

It is easier to have holy and unholy warriors.

hrm.

It cannot be based on dark or light... gotta be one word.

How about the Necaratite (bastardised latin come in handy when making up words.)
 

Okay, I didn'y read the entire thread so I don't know if this has already been said.

I totally agree with you. In my current campain, the players think Paladin is a totally good guy. Wrong. I am not sure now, but I do believe that the Player's Handbook says that Paladins are holy warriors. If your a holy warrior, it means you follow your god's will and teachings. If you so happen to worship a evil diety, you follow evil teaching. So I switch the "good" with "evil" and there you go.

Also, I agree with the fact that evil people do not need to get a prestige class to become an anti-paladin. If evil needs to then good needs to.

Just my two cents.
 

Not trying to hijack the thread, but here's a question that occurred to me...

Why is it that we hear far more cries for, "why isn't there an evil version of this?" or a "vile version of this?" or "where can I find more options for evil?" than we hear "why isn't there a good versino of this?" or a "pure version of this?" or "where can I find more options for good?"

By my count, evil already has been explored in far more depth and has far more options/resources available to it. Evil has (in no particular order) a plethora of demons and devils, legions of undead and necromancers, "vile" spells (Book of Vile Darkness), the Shadow Weave (FR), and so on and so forth.

Count the number of monsters by alignment in published works. You'll likely find that there are FAR more evil monsters than good ones (I expect neutral is about equal to evil).

Why? Well, by default heroes are good, so they need a wider variety of foes to slay, right? But if by default heroes are good, why are people not asking for more options for their "heroes?" My personal feeling is that "evil' seems more "cool" and/or seductive to play, so more people want it. An interesting thought for those who think evil has those qualities in real life. ;-)

Let's turn this question around and if we can answer it to our satisfaction, perhaps we'll answer the paladin question as well...

"Why is there no anti-blackguard?" Where is the Prestige Class that a reformed evil character can join?

Finally, from a game mechanical standpoint, let's look at motivations a deity might have for granting a paladin his powers - a LG deity would grant a paladin powers of healing and so forth to protect both the weak and the paladin himself (preserve the paladin so he can continue to provide protection to others). IMO, there are few willing to walk this road, so LG Gods are (a) prone to invest a little more power into them to keep them alive and/or (b) since they're not splitting their power among as many sources, the paladin is a more concentrated vessel - and hence gets more powers. A LG deity is liable to trust a character with no prior record. You don't have to prove yourself to a LG deity - he takes you at your word (which is why he's quick to take your powers away should you falter). The LG deity will give you the loan first and expect payment later through your deeds over a lifetime.

An evil deity, on the other hand, has no interest in promoting the welfare of others. Helping protect the weak doesn't matter to him - that doesn't increase his power. Thence, he will not have champions "just to have them." He's got a "what's in it for me?" attitude. He doesn't want to invest power into a weakling who's going to get killed quickly... what a waste! You have more people willing to walk his "easier" road, so he has more places among which he must divest his power/concentration. That means any one place is likely to have less investiture than that of a good deity. In order to gain benefits comparable to those of a servant of good, you must have proved you have some value to the evil deity - he's selfish, remember - he wants to be paid first and will show you the power later.

By this viewpoint, it makes sense that paladin is a core class and blackguard is a PrC... the paladin receives his powers as a token of good faith from his deity, who, being Good, is benevolent and willing to enter such an arrangement. That implies no past "deeds" are needed to qualify (hence, a first-level character is eligible). A blackguard has to prove himself in order to get his powers - the selfish nature of evil doesn't lend itself to giving out power as a token of good faith, so in order to get power from evil, you must "prove yourself/get the attention of an evil power." That implies past deeds (aka prerequisites and therefore a prestige class).

Perhaps not a perfect answer or thoughts, but they're mine.

--The Sigil
 

The problem with this is that an anti-paladin is probably not a good description. Lets look at the qualities of a paladin:

1) Devotion to Duty
2) Honesty
3) Protect the innocent
4) Not fight "unfairly"
5) Live by a code of Honor
6) Chivilarous
7) Defend the helpless


These are the things that make the paladin what he is. The fact that he must live by these things makes his life difficult. He can't sneak in the back, he has to meet evil on it's own turf. That is why he has more powers and abilities, his god helps him because that is the only way he can survive to do his duty. IMO paladins should be held to an even stricter code than most DM's seem to do and should be even more powerful, but that is another subject.

Anyways, these virtues do not transfer well to evil. They are each diametricly opposed to what an "anti" paladin would be into. An evil guy with a "code of honor"? Does that really make sense? Yes you have honor among thieves and all that, but is it really honor? Evil is about taking the quick road, the easy way out, looking out only for one's self, unconcerned about others. Regardless of which evil you are (Neutral, lawful, or chaotic), these things all fit into it.

The "anti" paladin, in my opinion, should have these qualities:

1) Devotion to oneself over all other things
2) Lying is second nature
3) Exploit the innocent to one's own advantage
4) fight to win, regardless of the cost
5) the only code is the moment, whatever it takes to win
6) contemptous of the weak, use women and others to fulfill beastial desires
7) Exploit the helpless for futher gain.

These qualities are why it makes more sense for it to be a "prestige" class. Paladins are powerfull because they cannot take the shortcuts, they are always in the maul of evil, taking them on blow for blow without a thought for their own safety. They need that extra power from day one, and because their deties are good, they trust in the heart of their champions from day one, until that trust gets twisted.

An evil version, however, has always taken the easy road, and must prove to his dark gods that he is worthy of the power that they normally covet for themselves (like all evil things, that is their nature, to covet their power, not to give it out). Thus it takes more for the evil deities to part with power for their minions. The evil deities make them earn the power first, no trust will happen there.

Just my 2cents.

TLG
 

As a fellow DM I say do whatever the heck you want in your campaign. :) There's nothing mechanically flawed with the idea of an Evil Knight of some sort.

However, I agree with the logic the designers of D&D seemed to use in their not including an Evil Knight Core Class: D&D is, by default, a game of heroes. Saving the innocents from evil is the assumed campaign structure. Thus, having an evil class wouldn't make a whole lot of sense.

Now, fast foward to the DMG. The Assassin is really just a souped-up guild rogue, not an anti-paladin. The Blackguard, likewise, is a PrC for a fallen paladin, not for a Knight of Evil.

There's no mechanical reason that a Knight of Evil couldn't exist. In fact, because the idea's so popular, there's about half a billion things you can use to represent it. However, it's not included in the Core Rules because the PC classes, in the Player's Handbook, should be the heroic knights of good and justice.

I, myself, prefer the idea of no 'anti-paladins,' because I like the Paladins to feel *real* special....they've got fiends, yeah. And they've got fallen paladins. And lots of other evil stuff. Having one gomer who's MORE ULTIMATE EEEEEVUHL doesn't add anything to my campaigns.

If I were to play an evil campaign, I may consider it. But, to be honest, I'm swayed in favor of the Shadow Knight class from FFd20, myself. :)
 

Hmm. I didn't think I was espousing a particularly egoist interpretation of the nature of evil. I thought that the interpretation of evil I was going from has more Thomistic--if evil is a privation of good with no real existance of its own, it's impossible that it could be valued for its own sake. Anything about evil that was valued would really turn out to be a perversion of something good.

I guess there is a certain similarity to an egoist (or emotivist for that matter) definition of evil, however. Neither view of evil allows evil to be valued for itself. I think that the only view of evil that would allow it to be valued for its own sake is probably a utilitarian view of evil. Even then, however, to value the suffering of others would most likely locate pleasure or some other measure of utility in it. I'm not sure any conception of evil really would allow it to be valued in itself rather than for something it perverted or produced.

As to the Nazi paladin, I suspect that he's have a very short life as either a character, Nazi, or Paladin. I'm assuming from the outset that the hypothetical Nazi Paladin would pursue the ideals of good and law and also support a collectivist, nationalist, and racialist National Socialist government.

Since I view good and evil as objective qualities, the Nazi paladin could only continue to be both a Nazi and a paladin as long as his pursuit of good order (I actually don't really distinguish between Law and Good--in games I run there's only one real alignment axis; the law/chaos axis is entirely relativistic and means whatever the players want it to) and his support of the collectivist, nationalist, racialist (since I'm already watering down Naziism right here, we could probably just say you can't be a Nazi paladin right now unless you want to assume that what I just described is still Naziism) government didn't conflict.

This might be possible if the character remained ignorant as to the nature of the Nazi government and served it in capacities where the actions it demanded did not conflict with the demands of Good. So, he might be a largely apolitical homocide investigator in a city without a noticable Jewish population (I think Nuremberg satisfied that criterion) or any other population of people the Nazis deemed unworthy of life and didn't read newspapers or listen to the radio (and if he ever did catch any news, he never looked past the sound bites). If he managed to live through the entire Nazi rule without being in a situation where he would reasonably be expected to figure out the nature of the nazi rule, he might manage to be both a Nazi and a paladin. If he did come into a situation where he would be reasonably expected to figure out the nature of the Nazi rule, however, he would not be justified in intentionally (conscious or subconscious intention) looking the other way. And once he figured out the nature of the Nazi rule, he would be obligated to leave the Nazi party (or at least work against them which would make him a Nazi in name only). If he were asked to do something wrong--by his Nazi superiors or by anyone else--and he did so, he would also endanger his Paladin status. (Not doing so would probably change his Nazi status). If he saw others doing something wrong, he would probably be obligated to oppose it.

You'll notice that the paladin's "Nazihood" has had to be stripped of most of its meaningful characteristics in order for this to work--and even then, it is hard to imagine that the conditions necessary for him to remain both a Nazi and a paladin would be satisfied for any length of time. So, it's unlikely that there can really be any Nazi paladin by my view.

Now, if you were asking whether a paladin can hold the following beliefs:

1. Society as a whole is more important than its individual members.
2. Countries have an obligation to advance their own interests before those of other nations.
3. People have greater obligations to those of their race or nation than to those of other races or nations.

the answer is a qualified yes. All of those principles are probably acceptable (actually, I think the third is innaccurate but it could occasionally be employed to guide choices that would otherwise be arbitrary without leading to wrong actions) but are easily perverted to evil--especially principle #3.

They are also, IMO, low principles on the totem pole of principles. In fact, even enunciating most of them--especially the third--may give them more significance than they actually have. (The third principle gains whatever credebility it has from the notion that people have greater obligations to their families than to others; that principle, however becomes exponentially weaker, the more distant the relation gets and probably can't really be applied justly at any macro level). If they were to conflict with principles like justice or benevolence, they ought to be disregarded. And any paladin who favors a lesser principle over a higher is treading on very dangerous grounds.

If you want to get away from attempts to water down Nazism until it isn't really Nazism anymore, then the answer is that a Nazi "paladin" is probably a LE (LN at best) fighter with a prestige class like Knight Protector of the Third Reich. By identifying "good" exclusively (or primarily) with his country and race, he has ceased to be good.

Wayside said:
I think your position fits a generic D&D campaign pretty well, as these games tend to make good and evil into 'facts' about the world. I'm less sure of your egoist (Ayn Rand-like) stand on the nature of evil, but either way, the question is how would you handle a Nazi Paladin?
 

On a competely unrelated note, doesn't the Epic Blackguard portrayed in the Epic Level Handbook just scream "I'm charismatic and I want to devour your soul! And there's nothing you can do about it! PHHTTTTHHHH!!!!:p".....or is it just me?
 

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