Is there demand for a “tactical” RPG akin to 4e?

[Tun Kai Poh]

Holy carp! This looks gorgeous. Thank you for bringing this to my attention!

Any game with crocodile lancers and flower necromancers is worth playing at least once.

 

[Randomthoughts]

Curious about people’s thoughts on this. I always liked the tactical aspects of D&D 4e, though didn’t play much of it myself. I think in a lot of ways, 4e suffered due to marketing and the fact that it was so different from D&D 3.5e, yet had the same name.

I’m sure there were many other issues that 4e had which turned away gamers, but I am curious now if there is demand for another game, which takes the best of 4e, and is designed and marketed as a “tactical” RPG. That is to say, an RPG with emphasis on grid-based combat, with depth for character creation, “powers” chosen at different levels (unique to the classes), and of course, a functional “social”/RP mechanics, with related skills, etc.

Pretty sure there's always going to be demand. I've modified 5e on FG to run a bit like 4e, but it's not really the same (nor should it be).
I'd really like 4e to be re-released with a OGL or something similar so I can play it on a VTT. Yes, I know there are alternatives out there and many are playing it now, but it requires a bit of tech savvy I haven't mustered yet. I'm still hoping....

I already mentioned LANCER and Gubat Banwa, both heavily inspired by 4e, but Tom Parkinson-Morgan (LANCER) has also released a playtest version of the ICON RPG, which uses some of the tactical mechanics of LANCER, together with narrative framework borrowed from Blades in the Dark. The feel of the setting is very much a techno-magical one, with angel-summoning gunslingers, shadow-teleporting assassins and lighting-throwing spellblades. The grid-based combat design has a strong Final Fantasy Tactics influence, but with the same kind of pushes, marks and in-combat healing you'd see in 4e.

Hadn't heard of Gubat Banwa so thanks for the link! I have LANCER (hard and electronic copy); have a group willing to play over the holidays. I also joined the KS for Role so looking forward to playing that online. I also downloaded ICON but haven't played it.

TBH, I still want 4e to be re-released, ideally on my fave VTT (Fantasy Grounds). Mainly so I can use all my 4e stuff!

 

[Umbran]

When I specifically want to spend hours on fantasy themed tactical combat, I usually turn to Gloomhaven, rather than an RPG.

 

[Sir Brennen]

The Fantasy Trip is an old school (like, literally...published in 1980) game that was based on a couple of tactical "Microgames", the first of which - Melee - is available for free in PDF format. Melee was specifically written in response to early D&D's lack of tactical options and "realism", as the author (Steve Jackson) saw it. A companion game, Wizard, was also available, introduced magic, and the game were compatible with each other.

Though presented as board games for arena battles, they had many of the trappings of an RPG, including abilities like Strength, Dexterity and Intelligence, as well as Experience Points gained for winning a battle. They both formed the basis for a full blown TTRPG - The Fantasy Trip. Unfortunately, due to a company rift and fights over publication rights, the game went out of print within a few years. However, it had fans with dedication sites up even in the 2010's.

Fast forward a few decades. The rights reverted back to Steve Jackson as the original author, and a hugely successful Kickstarter brought back the game in a slightly more polished version. As you can see here, the game is getting plenty of ongoing support, with new products just released this weekend.

So, if you're interested in strategic combat - facing, pole arm advantages, damage absorbing armor - where things are tightly balanced against each other (for instance, Strength is both hit points and what Wizards use to fuel spells) I recommend you check it out.

 

[GrahamWills]

Im assuming folks are thinking of the marks, and push, and blast elements of 4E that are unique to that edition. I'd love to hear more from folks on this tho.

When I specifically want to spend hours on fantasy themed tactical combat, I usually turn to Gloomhaven, rather than an RPG.

I've played in multiple campaigns for 13th Age, 4E and 3.5, PF1, PF2, Savage Worlds, Fate and AD&D. I've also got 100+ hours of Gloomhaven under my belt, so I've feeling pretty much the target person for this question!

I strongly enjoy tactical group play -- and by that I don't mean just "pieces on a board", I mean the need for a group to consider each other's strengths, and to significantly require team coordination to be highly effective. Of the games in this list, I'd rank the order as:

1. Gloomhaven
2. 4E
3. PF2
4. Everything else (SW might head the list)

Gloomhaven has specific rules on NOT sharing plans, because the entire game is about tactical teamwork. I played the main campaign at level +2, and at that level if you tried to do your own thing, you would fail, almost certainly.
A very typical round might have conversation: "I'm not going as fast as I can, but I'm going pretty fast and I can be the target for most of their attacks if you can move slowly" "Ahh, not sure I can move slow enough, I'll plan to go invisible then if I am faster than you"

For 4E, you don't need that level of coordination for most encounters, but it makes things very smooth if you do, but for big encounters, it's not uncommon for our group to plan 10 minutes on what we expect to do the first round, and powers that help your team move around, give them extra abilities and so on.
A very typical round might have conversation: "Keep that 3x3 square open, I'm going to daze those two bodyguards in it, but it's not ally friendly" "Hey, delay for me then; I'll move Janet out of that space and have a good chance of sliding the boss into the zone for you"

PF2 has a number of classes who do operate pretty independently; but it does benefit significantly from a bit of planning. I think mostly because the game is harder than other current D&D versions by quite a bit, so even small tactical considerations make a big difference.

 

[Zaukrie]

I've played in multiple campaigns for 13th Age, 4E and 3.5, PF1, PF2, Savage Worlds, Fate and AD&D. I've also got 100+ hours of Gloomhaven under my belt, so I've feeling pretty much the target person for this question!

I strongly enjoy tactical group play -- and by that I don't mean just "pieces on a board", I mean the need for a group to consider each other's strengths, and to significantly require team coordination to be highly effective. Of the games in this list, I'd rank the order as:

1. Gloomhaven
2. 4E
3. PF2
4. Everything else (SW might head the list)

Gloomhaven has specific rules on NOT sharing plans, because the entire game is about tactical teamwork. I played the main campaign at level +2, and at that level if you tried to do your own thing, you would fail, almost certainly.
A very typical round might have conversation: "I'm not going as fast as I can, but I'm going pretty fast and I can be the target for most of their attacks if you can move slowly" "Ahh, not sure I can move slow enough, I'll plan to go invisible then if I am faster than you"

For 4E, you don't need that level of coordination for most encounters, but it makes things very smooth if you do, but for big encounters, it's not uncommon for our group to plan 10 minutes on what we expect to do the first round, and powers that help your team move around, give them extra abilities and so on.
A very typical round might have conversation: "Keep that 3x3 square open, I'm going to daze those two bodyguards in it, but it's not ally friendly" "Hey, delay for me then; I'll move Janet out of that space and have a good chance of sliding the boss into the zone for you"

PF2 has a number of classes who do operate pretty independently; but it does benefit significantly from a bit of planning. I think mostly because the game is harder than other current D&D versions by quite a bit, so even small tactical considerations make a big difference.

I'd agree with your rankings.

I'll also say, at the risk of getting the ire of people aimed at me, 4e can be as much about role playing and exploration as any version of any RPG. It is all about what the group wants to be / do. We had nights with no combat.....but that was rare. Not because the game forced us that way, but because the group I played with enjoyed the combat aspects quite a bit.

I prefer 4e to 5e, but play 5e because that is what the people I play with play. It is just easier to play games that are supported with official character sheets and whatnot (the monster builder for 4e was the greatest tool ever. So easy to make new monsters).

 

[univoxs]

I scratch this itch with Rangers of Shadow Deep. But I've always played D&D with tactical combat so idk. Like many, disliked 4e, don't care for 5e so much either.

 

[GrahamWills]

(the monster builder for 4e was the greatest tool ever. So easy to make new monsters).

Yes, totally. 13th Age has easily the best monsters that are ready to go, but 4E made customization and creation of unique, fun, tactically interesting monsters so smooth.

Here's a couple of my favorites ... first, a medusa that leaps away from you and pushes you back out of range of all your player's nasty attacks, but can also pull in the squishes. I ran her on a rooftop city combat and pushing epic archers off buildings while dragging mages nice and close was a lot of fun

http://willsfamily.org/files/rpg/4e/Medusa.pdf

And here's the monster I grew at them in the final fight of my 4E campaign. She's labelled a solo, but I threw in 4 other level 32 creatures (2 soldiers and 2 strikers) to keep things interesting.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

I'd suggest the 13th Age, but I can also say that 4e runs pretty well with the math fix of 5e.

I use only the one of those 3 books setup:

• PHB 1-2-3 only (PHB 3 being only the Psionic classes)
• PHB 1-2-3 plus ''power books 1'' for every power source
• Essentials only.

Special rules:
no feats, no themes.
no + half-level, use Proficiency bonus instead.
Attunement limit of 5e.
Items from 4e

Or, if you want to keep it simple, use 4e with:
No feats, no themes, PHBs only. Use Inherent Bonuses (an option from DMG 3, IIRC ?)
+1 to all Defenses at 11th and 21th levels, +1 to all Attack rolls (I call it Paragon Boons and Epic Boons, merged with the base +1 to all stats that a PC gets at 11th and 21th.)

MM3/Monster Vault/Threat to the NV for the DM's side.

 

[Jd Smith1]

I never really considered the gimmick-loaded 4e a tactical game; but every version of D&D has been a combat-focused game with few real options.

Zweihander, my current go-to system, is a lovely tactical game which also handles social situations well. It is incredibly lethal, fast, and grim.