Is this character "balanced?" Discuss...

[The Sigil]

I am curious to get some outside views on this one, so I'll throw it out there:

Do you feel the following character is "balanced" with respect to a 6th-level character created under the Core Rules that uses the 15, 13, 12, 11, 10, 8 ability score array?

I have not included the character's gear, merely his "innate" abilities. Please explain your position one way or the other, and please consider all of the information presented.

Disclaimer: I know a lot of the stuff here looks very non-standard. It's meant to be that way. You cannot put this character together using the Core Rules, though all of his abilities come from the core rules. So tell me, IYO, is it balanced (even if it is weird)?

Without further ado...

Willy the "True Necromancer" EDIT: "True Necromancer" is a title he applies to himself, NOT the name of a class or anything. It tells you the character concept - necromancer - I am trying to build. Do NOT think of it as a class name.
Race: Human
Alignment: Neutral Evil
Str: 8
Dex: 10
Con: 12 (11 plus one from ability score increase)
Int: 15
Wis: 13
Cha: 12

Hit points: 36 (4d12+4)
Proficiencies: Light Armor, Shield, all Simple Weapons
Base Attack Bonus: +3
Saves (Base): Fort +4, Ref +1, Will +3

Feats:
Extra Turning (from Human heritage)
Scribe Scroll
Spell Focus: Necromancy

Skills:
Concentration 7 Ranks
Spellcraft 7 Ranks
Knowledge (religion) 6 Ranks
Tumble 1 Rank
Heal 1 Rank

Spellcasting:
Has the following divine spell slots and casts as a fifth level caster that casts from the cleric spell list without the ability to spontaneously use healing spells (and gets no domains) - DC for spells is 11 + spell level (12 + spell level for Necromantic spells)
0th level -- 3 slots
1st level -- 4 slots (3 base plus one from high Wis)
2nd level -- 3 slots
3rd level -- 3 slots

Has the following arcane spell slots - must prepare spells (as a wizard) and casts as a fifth level caster -- DC for spells is 12 + spell level (13 + spell level for Necromantic spells):
0th level -- 3 slots
1st level -- 4 slots (3 base plus one from high Int)
2nd level -- 4 slots (3 base plus one from high Int)
3rd level -- 1 slot

Arcane Spells In Spellbook:
All cantrips, four first level spells, four second level spells, two third level spells

Other:
Ability to Command/Rebuke undead as a 6th-level cleric

Note: Does NOT have a familiar (as a wizard might be expected to have)

 

[d4]

4d12 hit dice, but the spell-casting ability of both a 5th-level cleric and a 5th-level wizard? i'd eyeball that at CR 7 or 8 at a minimum.

as a PC, i'd say he's like an 8th or 9th level character, at least.

 

[The Sigil]

4d12 hit dice, but the spell-casting ability of both a 5th-level cleric and a 5th-level wizard? i'd eyeball that at CR 7 or 8 at a minimum.

as a PC, i'd say he's like an 8th or 9th level character, at least.

You're not looking at the whole thing, you're focusing on certain specific parts.

He does not have the casting ability of a 5th-level cleric and 5th-level wizard. He has fewer spells per level than a 5th-level caster (except 3rd level Cleric spells) *and* no access to cleric domains. His saves are worse than a 6th level character, as is his BAB (actually, it's equal to a Wiz6). His 4d12 hit dice are equivalent to 6d8... a 6th level cleric's hit dice. He doesn't have the armor or weapons proficiency of a cleric, nor an overabundance of skill points.

Again, please consider all the information - don't knee-jerk at caster level only. This one will take a few minutes to mull over to see all the "tradeoffs" that occurred.

--The Sigil

 

[d4]

He does not have the casting ability of a 5th-level cleric and 5th-level wizard. He has fewer spells per level than a 5th-level caster (except 3rd level Cleric spells) *and* no access to cleric domains.

a 6th-level cleric has (ignoring bonus spells from Wisdom but including domain spells) the following spells: 5/4/4/3. (5 0-level, 4 1st-level, etc.)

a 6th-level wizard has (ignoring bonus spells from Intelligence) the following spells: 4/3/3/2.

your character has combined (ignoring bonus spells from Int and Wis) the following spells: 6/6/6/4.

he's got more spells per day than either a single-classed 6th-level cleric or a single-classed 6th-level wizard. that means his spellcasting is better than a 6th-level character should have, IMO.

His saves are worse than a 6th level character, as is his BAB (actually, it's equal to a Wiz6). His 4d12 hit dice are equivalent to 6d8... a 6th level cleric's hit dice.

his saves aren't that much worse than a 6th-level wizard's. total of +8 as opposed to +9. his BAB is the same as a 6th-level wizard, and as you say, his hit dice are equivalent to a 6th-level cleric.

He doesn't have the armor or weapons proficiency of a cleric...

all he loses is medium and heavy armor. otherwise identical. can he cast his arcane spells in armor? if yes, that's a huge benefit. if not, then he probably doesn't need any armor proficiencies in the first place.

...nor an overabundance of skill points.

which neither clerics nor wizards get either.

This one will take a few minutes to mull over to see all the "tradeoffs" that occurred.

i still think he's more equivalent to an 8th-level character than a 6th-level one.

no hard feelings, dude. i like the character concept; i just don't think it's balanced for 6th level.

 

[Herremann the Wise]

Hi Everyone,

On the surface, I have to agree with d4 on this one.

However perhaps you can explain the thinking behind:

- a d12 HD from a base of a d8 and a d4.
- access to 3rd level spells from a "4th Level" character.

The idea seems interesting - although a necromancer not having access to the Death Domain does seem inappropriate.
In terms of the concept, it does seem to be unbalanced as a core class. Remember that attribute scores should have no bearing when evaluating the balance of the concept.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[The Sigil]

no hard feelings, dude. i like the character concept; i just don't think it's balanced for 6th level.

*Smiles*

None taken. I like that you're taking time to analyze it. I'm just throwing it out for a little "tweaking" - I'm not saying it IS equivalent to a 6th-level character, I just want to see how much tweaking I need to do. That's why I want folks' thoughts on balance. It's not a "this character is balanced" so much as "how much fine-tuning is still required?" type of question.

--The Sigil

 

[The Sigil]

Hi Everyone,
- a d12 HD from a base of a d8 and a d4.
- access to 3rd level spells from a "4th Level" character.

You are trapped in Class/Level thinking. Let go of thinking 4 HD == 4th level character. It's not a class. There is no class. The HD were "built" for this character completely independent from the spells. The spells were built independent of the Feats. The Feats were built independent of the class ability of turning. The turning was built independent of the proficiencies, etc.

In other words, this character has no class. He has no level. He's trying to be balanced against a Clr6 or a Ftr6 on the weight of sheer, raw character abilities. I threw the "Standard Array" in so that people couldn't say, "well, if he had an 18 Int..." etc. Give him straight 10's or straight 15's if you want to (and give it to another character as well).

Once again, don't look at this as a "class" - look at it as a "character." Don't try to "build" the character as a Wiz4/Clr2 or whatever. Make "class" as invisible to you as it would be IRL to a character. Look only at the abilities, please. Do not try to reverse engineer him into "class/level" - you will not succeed - because he was not built that way.

It should be noted that this is an attempt on my part to severely "break" my system at the equivalent of 6th level (particularly with regards to multiclassed spellcasting).

It should also be noted that my system currently handles "building up" the existing character classes rather well (in terms of building a Clr6 equivalent and comparing to a by the book Clr6). That's why I need some stress tests and some outside input - I've been working at it for so long, I've probably become trapped by some of my paradigms and need someone to point out my mistakes.

--The Sigil

 

[Herremann the Wise]

Hi The Sigil,

I suppose when you try to evaluate balance, you compare it to what you know and use. I can understand you wanting to divorce from this system but it is precisely this system that allows easy comparison in terms of balance. Otherwise one has to ask the questions I asked - the most obvious "unbalancing" issues. Even still, the fact that you have created this character on a 4th level character foundation is shouted out loud and clear - HD, Base Attack Bonuses, Feats and Skills all reflecting this. Is it that bad to then evaluate it on this basis? He has access to spells +1 over his base as well as far more spell slots than a base 4th level character, he has a HD roll of d12 that seems over-powered. He still gets to turn/rebuke undead two levels over and above that of the same level Cleric despite not getting any domains - which as I said before seems slightly flawed in terms of the "Character" - he really should have Death Touch.

As such, I understand that you don't want to compare him to the whole "class" thing but it is exactly this system that allows you to make a reasonably accurate comparison for evaluating balance. In terms of abilities, you compare his abilities to that of an equivalent level character - be it 6th, 7th, 8th or 9th. All in all, I would guess that he would be slightly soft as a 9th level but very strong for a 7th or 8th.

How exactly do you plan to use this character? Will he ever advance, is he an opponent etc. etc.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[BSF]

Ok, I am willing to play. First off a few questions.

Assuming there aren't any cross-class skills, I see 22 skill points. If we are divorcing the concept of classes, how many skill points does this character have w/o Int bonuses? Is that an issue?

Is Arcane Spell Failure in armor an issue?

Is that Base Attack Bonus, or adjusted Attack bonus? (I am assuming Base since you didn't list Melee and Ranged, but perhaps your system allows you to buy ranged and melee seperately?)

You specify that those are Base Saves. That really is w/o ability bonuses, correct?

I _think_ I know most of these answers, but I want to be sure before I open my mouth!

 

[andargor]

You are trapped in Class/Level thinking. Let go of thinking 4 HD == 4th level character. It's not a class. There is no class. The HD were "built" for this character completely independent from the spells. The spells were built independent of the Feats. The Feats were built independent of the class ability of turning. The turning was built independent of the proficiencies, etc.

So, basically, you're developing a system to "buy" abilities. Similar to "point-buy" for Str, Con, etc., but that applies to all abilities, correct?

Andargor