Is this character "balanced?" Discuss...

[Voadam]

Ok, I think the most relevant comparison here is to a straight level 6 wizard. He has the apparent spellcasting of a 5th level generalist wizard plus a bunch of stuff.

His hit points are a little less than a 10th level wizard (4d12 compared to 12d4, then lowered due to difference in con bonus).

He gets the base attack of a 6th or 7th level wizard.

No familiar (minor loss)

6th level turning

5th level cleric spells without domains or spontaneous casting.

Gains simple weapons (minor gain).

If you want him to be balanced with a 6th level wizard then I think you are too generous on the turning and divine spells. Perhaps give him one spellcasting class only but can draw from arcane necromancer spells as part of his divine list.

 

[The Sigil]

Ok, I am willing to play. First off a few questions.

Assuming there aren't any cross-class skills, I see 22 skill points. If we are divorcing the concept of classes, how many skill points does this character have w/o Int bonuses? Is that an issue?

Under this system, there is no such thing as a "class skill" or a "cross-class" skill. You simply purchase ranks. Thus, he has 22 skill points. High Int does NOT provide bonus ranks; rather, it provides a "discount" when purchasing ranks.

Is Arcane Spell Failure in armor an issue?

Yes.

Is that Base Attack Bonus, or adjusted Attack bonus? (I am assuming Base since you didn't list Melee and Ranged, but perhaps your system allows you to buy ranged and melee seperately?)

That is Base Attack Bonus. I have a system for buying them separately, but didn't use it here.

You specify that those are Base Saves. That really is w/o ability bonuses, correct?

Yes. It's the equivalent of a 2nd level monk's +3/+3/+3, for instance.

I _think_ I know most of these answers, but I want to be sure before I open my mouth!

You hit it right across the board.

--The Sigil

 

[The Sigil]

Ok, I think the most relevant comparison here is to a straight level 6 wizard. He has the apparent spellcasting of a 5th level generalist wizard plus a bunch of stuff.

Sounds good to me, let's get after it.

Hit Points:
4d12 (average: 12+3*6.5 = 31.5) vs 6d4 (average: 4+5*2.5 = 16.5)

So he has nearly double the hit points of a Wizard

Saves:
3/1/4 vs. 2/2/5

So he gains a point in Fort saves but loses a point in both Ref and Will saves. Not a catastrophe, but still slightly weaker. We can probably call this about even.

Proficiencies:
Simple Weapons, Shields, Light Armor vs. limited simple weapons only

He gains a few simple weapon proficiencies, plus shields and light armor proficiency

Skills:
22 Ranks vs. 45 Ranks (for a human Wiz6 with a 15 Int)

He has less than half as many skill ranks.

Feats:
3 Feats vs. 6 Feats (for a human Wiz 6 - human Wiz 6 gains 1 for being human plus 3 for levels 1, 3, 6 plus 2 for Wiz1 and Wiz5)

So he has half as many Feats, as well.

Spells:
6/6/6/4 at Caster Level 5 vs. 4/3/3/2 at Caster level 6

While the lower caster level partially off-sets the extra spell slots, I think at the end of the day he does have a little more "firepower" in his arsenal.

Familiar:
No familiar vs. familiar

It's a bigger loss than might be thought at first blush. Look at the benefits a familiar provides when within five feet:
1.) Alertness Feat to master
2.) "Virtual Feat" that is dependent on familiar type (e.g., Toad = Toughness, Rat = Great Fortitude, etc.)
3.) This applies at ranges greater than 5', but the wizard also has the ability to use the familiar to deliver touch spells (probably a minor loss).

So that's another two Feats, in effect, that the character has lost.

Other:
Turning versus no turning

A no-brainer. Better to have it than not.

----

So in my mind, the question is the following:

Does (a) reducing caster level by one, (b) going from 8 (6+2) Feats to 3 Feats (a loss of 5 Feats) and (c) cutting skill points in half compensate for:
(d) a hit point doubling, (e) an increase of 2/3/3/2 in spells per day, (f) light armor and shields proficiency (he only gains a couple of simple weapons, and I'll say that minor alteration is balanced by the minor Save loss) and (g) the ability to turn undead?

Or, to turn it around, would you give up half your hit points, 2/3/3/2 spells, light armor and shields proficiency and the ability to turn undead for 5 Feats, doubled skill points, and another caster level?

If you have a hard time deciding which you'd do, I think I've done my job. If it's a no-brainer, please tell me so... and which way. To me, it's a tough choice.

--The Sigil

 

[The Sigil]

So, basically, you're developing a system to "buy" abilities. Similar to "point-buy" for Str, Con, etc., but that applies to all abilities, correct?

Andargor

You hit the nail on the head. And the underlying "currency" in buying stuff is XP. Which is why I can say, "equivalent to a 6th level character" - I give myself 15,000 XP (well, a little more actually, since you have to spend stuff at "1st level" to get started LOL) and try to spend it on abilities. A 6th level character has gained 15,000 XP since creation. This character was built on 15,000 XP "after creation."

I have come to the conclusion that the best judge of a character's power is not "LEVEL" but "TOTAL XP EARNED." Why?

I'll take the extreme example - a wizard who has the "Craft Staff" and "Craft Wondrous Item" Feats at 12th level. He goes out and earns 11,000 XP - then burns it all creating a nifty staff (I'll leave gold out of the equation for the moment). Then he and his buddies go out on another adventure and earn another 11,000 XP. He blows all that on creating Wondrous items for himself... wash, rinse repeat. When his buddies hit 15th level, he's still 12th level - but has two monstrous staffs, a single ability-enhancing item that grants +6 to all his stats, bracers of armor +8, etc. He's not REALLY a 12th level character - because he has the "stuff" that a character who is 15th level would have earned (like his buddies). Eventually, of course, the law of diminishing returns kicks in, but for a spread of 2-3 levels, I think the "loss" of raw spellcasting punch is offset by the sheer volume of magical accoutrements he creates for himself.

I'm doing this explanation shorthand, but hopefully it helps illustrate.

--The Sigil

 

[jasamcarl]

Sounds good to me, let's get after it.

Hit Points:
4d12 (average: 12+3*6.5 = 31.5) vs 6d4 (average: 4+5*2.5 = 16.5)

So he has nearly double the hit points of a Wizard

Saves:
3/1/4 vs. 2/2/5

So he gains a point in Fort saves but loses a point in both Ref and Will saves. Not a catastrophe, but still slightly weaker. We can probably call this about even.

Proficiencies:
Simple Weapons, Shields, Light Armor vs. limited simple weapons only

He gains a few simple weapon proficiencies, plus shields and light armor proficiency

Skills:
22 Ranks vs. 45 Ranks (for a human Wiz6 with a 15 Int)

He has less than half as many skill ranks.

Feats:
3 Feats vs. 6 Feats (for a human Wiz 6 - human Wiz 6 gains 1 for being human plus 3 for levels 1, 3, 6 plus 2 for Wiz1 and Wiz5)

So he has half as many Feats, as well.

Spells:
6/6/6/4 at Caster Level 5 vs. 4/3/3/2 at Caster level 6

While the lower caster level partially off-sets the extra spell slots, I think at the end of the day he does have a little more "firepower" in his arsenal.

Familiar:
No familiar vs. familiar

It's a bigger loss than might be thought at first blush. Look at the benefits a familiar provides when within five feet:
1.) Alertness Feat to master
2.) "Virtual Feat" that is dependent on familiar type (e.g., Toad = Toughness, Rat = Great Fortitude, etc.)
3.) This applies at ranges greater than 5', but the wizard also has the ability to use the familiar to deliver touch spells (probably a minor loss).

So that's another two Feats, in effect, that the character has lost.

Other:
Turning versus no turning

A no-brainer. Better to have it than not.

----

So in my mind, the question is the following:

Does (a) reducing caster level by one, (b) going from 8 (6+2) Feats to 3 Feats (a loss of 5 Feats) and (c) cutting skill points in half compensate for:
(d) a hit point doubling, (e) an increase of 2/3/3/2 in spells per day, (f) light armor and shields proficiency (he only gains a couple of simple weapons, and I'll say that minor alteration is balanced by the minor Save loss) and (g) the ability to turn undead?

Or, to turn it around, would you give up half your hit points, 2/3/3/2 spells, light armor and shields proficiency and the ability to turn undead for 5 Feats, doubled skill points, and another caster level?

If you have a hard time deciding which you'd do, I think I've done my job. If it's a no-brainer, please tell me so... and which way. To me, it's a tough choice.

--The Sigil

It looks like a no-brainer for me, i.e. I think it gains to much. Saying he has lost 5 feats is stretching it, because 1) a familiar can be killed and 2) those are 'weak' feats to begin with and don't really stack up in utility for the wizard relative to a range of others; three feats is enough to max this spellcaster. Skill points are mostly not an issue, because there are only 2 or three skills which a wizard or cleric could really need to max out. The only real loss from the combat perspective is the caster level.

On the other hand, almost everything it gains are more substantial and have a good deal of damage avoidance/damage dealing capability.

 

[Voadam]

So in my mind, the question is the following:

Does (a) reducing caster level by one, (b) going from 8 (6+2) Feats to 3 Feats (a loss of 5 Feats) and (c) cutting skill points in half compensate for:
(d) a hit point doubling, (e) an increase of 2/3/3/2 in spells per day, (f) light armor and shields proficiency (he only gains a couple of simple weapons, and I'll say that minor alteration is balanced by the minor Save loss) and (g) the ability to turn undead?

Or, to turn it around, would you give up half your hit points, 2/3/3/2 spells, light armor and shields proficiency and the ability to turn undead for 5 Feats, doubled skill points, and another caster level?

If you have a hard time deciding which you'd do, I think I've done my job. If it's a no-brainer, please tell me so... and which way. To me, it's a tough choice.

--The Sigil

Doubling hit points for one caster level is a pretty good deal, throw in the cleric casting and turning and it seems like an easy choice in comparative power at this level.

The armor and weapons are pretty much irrelevant, this is not a melee combat character, this is a primary necromancy caster.

Skill points, relatively irrelevant difference for a spellcaster, he is not relied upon for his skills.

The familiar feats are debatable, they can not be used for magic oriented ones so I think they should not be valued as if they were free feat choices. For instance, alertness will not make a wizard a good spotter compared to any character with spot on his class skill list.

Also, not every wizard takes a familiar (in the games I run and play only 1 out of 4 PC arcane spellcasters took one [me]).

 

[jasamcarl]

You hit the nail on the head. And the underlying "currency" in buying stuff is XP. Which is why I can say, "equivalent to a 6th level character" - I give myself 15,000 XP (well, a little more actually, since you have to spend stuff at "1st level" to get started LOL) and try to spend it on abilities. A 6th level character has gained 15,000 XP since creation. This character was built on 15,000 XP "after creation."

I have come to the conclusion that the best judge of a character's power is not "LEVEL" but "TOTAL XP EARNED." Why?

I'll take the extreme example - a wizard who has the "Craft Staff" and "Craft Wondrous Item" Feats at 12th level. He goes out and earns 11,000 XP - then burns it all creating a nifty staff (I'll leave gold out of the equation for the moment). Then he and his buddies go out on another adventure and earn another 11,000 XP. He blows all that on creating Wondrous items for himself... wash, rinse repeat. When his buddies hit 15th level, he's still 12th level - but has two monstrous staffs, a single ability-enhancing item that grants +6 to all his stats, bracers of armor +8, etc. He's not REALLY a 12th level character - because he has the "stuff" that a character who is 15th level would have earned (like his buddies). Eventually, of course, the law of diminishing returns kicks in, but for a spread of 2-3 levels, I think the "loss" of raw spellcasting punch is offset by the sheer volume of magical accoutrements he creates for himself.

I'm doing this explanation shorthand, but hopefully it helps illustrate.

--The Sigil

Your last point is a good one. That is why xp is a poor cost. The next time i run a campaign, i will probably draw a distinction between xp earned and xp spent and base challenges on the former.

 

[Voadam]

double post

 

[Storminator]

Double Post...

 

[Voadam]

I have come to the conclusion that the best judge of a character's power is not "LEVEL" but "TOTAL XP EARNED." Why?

I'll take the extreme example - a wizard who has the "Craft Staff" and "Craft Wondrous Item" Feats at 12th level. He goes out and earns 11,000 XP - then burns it all creating a nifty staff (I'll leave gold out of the equation for the moment). Then he and his buddies go out on another adventure and earn another 11,000 XP. He blows all that on creating Wondrous items for himself... wash, rinse repeat. When his buddies hit 15th level, he's still 12th level - but has two monstrous staffs, a single ability-enhancing item that grants +6 to all his stats, bracers of armor +8, etc. He's not REALLY a 12th level character - because he has the "stuff" that a character who is 15th level would have earned (like his buddies). Eventually, of course, the law of diminishing returns kicks in, but for a spread of 2-3 levels, I think the "loss" of raw spellcasting punch is offset by the sheer volume of magical accoutrements he creates for himself.

I'm doing this explanation shorthand, but hopefully it helps illustrate.

--The Sigil

What do you do if the character loses the items to sundering attacks etc., or runs out of charges? Now you have a character who has earned x amount of xp, but no longer has the power of x amount of xp.