Infiniti2000
First Post
Just think of the money you can make by creating orbs of acid, bottling them, and selling them. You can then sell flasks of acid, fire, force, etc.Diirk said:
Is this combo as broken as I think it is?
- Thread starter Balord
- Start date
ThirdWizard
First Post
Infiniti2000 said:Just think of the money you can make by creating orbs of acid, bottling them, and selling them. You can then sell flasks of acid, fire, force, etc.
Force here! Get your pure 100% force! All natural! You can't miss with force!
the Jester
Legend
Caeleddin said:They don't even exist in mine, since it is Core rules only
They don't exist in my game either, and it's pretty far from Core only.
Acid Arrows and Orbs are still blocked by an Antimagic field due to the fact that the Wizard is not throwing them, magic is propelling them (a ranged touch attack is not the same as a ranged weapon attack). They hit the field and they disappear (remember, Melf's Acid Arrow states that there is no splash damage, hence, they could not even get that).
Melf's Acid Arrow, for example, has range long. That's a minimum of 520 feet and nobody can throw anything (even a boomerang which is about the longest range thrown weapon possible) 520 feet.
Line of effect is still required for these types of spells and the shaped Antimagic field still blocks line of effect for them as well.
No free rides, just because the game designers thought of a cool way to get past saving throws and spell resistance.
Antimagic means just that: antimagic. All magic.
DMG page 290:
"No supernatural abilities, spells, or spell-like abilities works in an area of antimagic."
Are the conjuration spells, spells? Yes. Then, they do not work in an area of antimagic, it does not matter what their effect is.
A Wall of Force, on the other hand, has its effects with regard to Antimagic explicitly stated in the DMG. Summoning spells have explicit text in the antimagic section of the DMG stating how they work with antimagic.
Orbs and Acid Arrows do not have such special text in their descriptions or in the DMG. It does not matter that they are conjuration spells. They are suppressed as per the DMG. Just like a summoned creature does not continue moving through the antimagic field and then come out the other side, neither do these conjuration spells continue moving. Their magic is suppressed, just like all other magic. Now, if the Antimagic field goes away and the Melf's Acid Arrow's duration is still up, it then can continue on it's way to hit the original target because the spell is not dispelled, it is suppressed. That is, if the original target is in the same square as previously.
Melf's Acid Arrow, for example, has range long. That's a minimum of 520 feet and nobody can throw anything (even a boomerang which is about the longest range thrown weapon possible) 520 feet.
Line of effect is still required for these types of spells and the shaped Antimagic field still blocks line of effect for them as well.
No free rides, just because the game designers thought of a cool way to get past saving throws and spell resistance.
Antimagic means just that: antimagic. All magic.
DMG page 290:
"No supernatural abilities, spells, or spell-like abilities works in an area of antimagic."
Are the conjuration spells, spells? Yes. Then, they do not work in an area of antimagic, it does not matter what their effect is.
A Wall of Force, on the other hand, has its effects with regard to Antimagic explicitly stated in the DMG. Summoning spells have explicit text in the antimagic section of the DMG stating how they work with antimagic.
Orbs and Acid Arrows do not have such special text in their descriptions or in the DMG. It does not matter that they are conjuration spells. They are suppressed as per the DMG. Just like a summoned creature does not continue moving through the antimagic field and then come out the other side, neither do these conjuration spells continue moving. Their magic is suppressed, just like all other magic. Now, if the Antimagic field goes away and the Melf's Acid Arrow's duration is still up, it then can continue on it's way to hit the original target because the spell is not dispelled, it is suppressed. That is, if the original target is in the same square as previously.
Thanee pointed out earlier that Mage's Disjunction can be used to bring down AM fields, which is something I overlooked at first, but I just looked it up in the SRD and it says this only has a 1% chance / caster level of working. A 20th level caster would only have a 20% chance of success. So a Disjunction CAN bring down an AMF, but odds are it usually won't work.
I'm inclined to agree with those that say the Orb spells and the like would not bypass the AM field. They are propelled by magic, so the AMF should stop them. But magic weapons and the like would seem to work normally against the Archmage - when they enter the AMF their magic is supressed, but when they strike the archmage their magic is no longer supressed because the area the archmage occupies is not subject to the AMF. So a +5 sword would still strike the Archmage as a +5 sword.
So this archmage is not as powerful as I first thought, but still the idea of a fully buffed shapechanging Archmage surrounded by an AMF (one that does not affect him) seems very scary. Or imagine a fighter/wizard/eldritch-knight using the Extraordinary Spell Aim (pointed out by Gabrion earlier in this thread) with AMF. Yikes!
I'm inclined to agree with those that say the Orb spells and the like would not bypass the AM field. They are propelled by magic, so the AMF should stop them. But magic weapons and the like would seem to work normally against the Archmage - when they enter the AMF their magic is supressed, but when they strike the archmage their magic is no longer supressed because the area the archmage occupies is not subject to the AMF. So a +5 sword would still strike the Archmage as a +5 sword.
So this archmage is not as powerful as I first thought, but still the idea of a fully buffed shapechanging Archmage surrounded by an AMF (one that does not affect him) seems very scary. Or imagine a fighter/wizard/eldritch-knight using the Extraordinary Spell Aim (pointed out by Gabrion earlier in this thread) with AMF. Yikes!
Ridley's Cohort
First Post
Yawn.
If a powerful Wizard wants to attempt defeat me with arrows and whatnot, I could not be happier. Even an Eldritch Knight.
If a powerful Wizard wants to attempt defeat me with arrows and whatnot, I could not be happier. Even an Eldritch Knight.
Balord said:
This is not very scary at all.
Say you have a Wizard enclosed in an antimagic bubble. Yes, he can buff himself and prepare for later combat.
But, it is very difficult for him to be effective at all in combat before the Antimagic Field comes down.
He could take a weapon and go up to the enemy fighter and swing and have a good chance of hitting. But, weapon damage plus Str bonus would require a lot of rounds to take out an enemy similar level Fighter this way. If the Fighter is in the Antimagic Field and the Wizard is not, his spells and weapons would still be non-magical when they get to the Fighter.
Even a Polymorphed or Shapechanged Wizard reaching into the Antimagic Field around the Fighter would suddenly have his Troll or Dire Bear or Dragon claws suppressed and he would effectively be making an unarmed attack against the Fighter. Without Improved Unarmed Strike or Monk levels, the Fighter would get a free Attack of Opportunity and if he hits, the Wizards melee attack is nullified.
Plus, unlike a Wall of Force, nothing indicates that you can Teleport through an Antimagic Field. Hence, the enemies of the Wizard can pelt him with magical/aligned arrows (which get magical again once they get to his square) and he can hardly counter-attack or run away (he could conceivably Fly away, but his opponents should often be able to stay with him).
Such a Wizard would be well protected against spell attacks, but he would not be very scary until he dismisses the Antimagic Field.
The best such a Wizard could do to be offensive would be to fire missiles out of his antimagic bubble. An Arcane Archer, for example, with an antimagic bubble around her might conceivably be able to use some of her arrow spell-like or supernatural powers through the bubble.
But, this is hardly a great or scary tactic. It is a spell defensive tactic until the Wizard buffs up, but would be relatively ineffective against missile and melee attacks.
Wizards have a lot of spells they can make persistent (including this combo), and although it takes a bit of work with some other tricks, using this combo to make a perma buffed wizard is way more effective than you all are giving credit for.
Edit: Keep in mind that a better general use for this is the Cleric, who can also cast AMF at 6th level with the right domain. Maybe you aren't afraid of a wizard "tank", but a cleric? You're looking at someone who was already kickin in melee and now they nullify all the enemy's magical gear? Ouch...
Edit: Keep in mind that a better general use for this is the Cleric, who can also cast AMF at 6th level with the right domain. Maybe you aren't afraid of a wizard "tank", but a cleric? You're looking at someone who was already kickin in melee and now they nullify all the enemy's magical gear? Ouch...
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