Is this fair? (Not for my players)

[Eccles]

The 3.5e rules for making zombies are much better than the 3e rules.

So I've zombified some Fire Giants, disregarding the 20HD cap on the grounds that the villains could've used Create Greater Undead rather than the more normal Animate Dead.

Have I got the stats right, and does the CR need adjusting? They're basically very strong meat-shields, and shouldn't really trouble the party much, but are a huge step away from the CR3 rubbishy large undead that the 3e rules give you...

Zombie Fire Giant
Large Undead (Fire)
Hit Dice: 30d12+3 (198 hp)
Initiative: -2 (Dex)
Speed: 30 ft. (chainmail); base 40 ft.
AC: 24 (-1 size, -2 Dex, +12 natural, +5 chainmail)
Attacks: Huge greatsword +26 melee; or slam +26
Damage: Huge greatsword 2d8+16; or slam 1d8+11
Face/Reach: 5 ft. by 5 ft./10 ft
Special Qualities: fire subtype
Saves: Fort +10, Ref +8, Will +15
Abilities: Str 33, Dex 7, Con -, Int -, Wis 10, Cha 1
Skills: Climb +12, Jump +12, Spot +7
Feats: Toughness
Challenge Rating: 7-8
Treasure: None
Fire Subtype (Ex): Fire immunity, double damage from cold except on a successful save.
Damage Reduction 5/Slashing, Undead traits
Single actions only.

 

[JimAde]

Man, that's a lot of hit points. Thick meat shield

I believe zombies lose special qualities like Fire Resistance. I just recently threw a zombie Winter Wolf at my players and I seem to remember it losing its cold subtype. Obviously you can change that, but I believe losing subtypes is the default behavior.

And a quibble: Do fire giants really only take up a 5 foot square? I thought they were bigger than that.

 

[Piratecat]

That sure seems like more than a CR 7-8 to me.

 

[DanMcS]

Not a lot more. A 12th level party or so could probably chew one of these guys up like a speed bump. "Single actions only" is a big downside, especially when the good guys are into 2 or more iterative attacks. Call it CR 10ish, the same as the base fire giant.

 

[the Jester]

I agree that the CR, as it stands, is too low; and that CR 10 sounds pretty good.

As to the subtype, idhmbifom but I believe you keep subtypes with most templates. Could be wrong though....

 

[Eccles]

Certainly the 3.5 red dragon skeleton kept his fire immunity.

I'm going to go with CR9, as the only thing he's gained from the regular Fire Giant is about 50HP and an immunity to Criticals.

He's lost all ranged attacks, a lot of movement, and 2 attacks per round. Oh, and any ability to intelligently choose his opponents in combat. That last one is pretty much the one that does it for the poor thing.

 

[Ghostknight]

Certainly the 3.5 red dragon skeleton kept his fire immunity.

I'm going to go with CR9, as the only thing he's gained from the regular Fire Giant is about 50HP and an immunity to Criticals.

He's lost all ranged attacks, a lot of movement, and 2 attacks per round. Oh, and any ability to intelligently choose his opponents in combat. That last one is pretty much the one that does it for the poor thing.

Hmm, but what I am looking at is that +26 melee and 24 AC. Yeah, the fighter should not have a hard time hitting him, but others will and this zombie has enough hit points to absorb a LOT of damage (and being undead is immune to criticals). To top it off it is likely to be pounding into the characters with relative ease (I doubt that many 9th level characters have an AC high enough to poe a challenge to something with a +26 Melee) so they are going to be taking an average of 25HP Per round (your average 9th level fighter has 10 +8*5.5 = 54HP, with maybe +27 for con 16 = 81HP). To make matters worse with a reach of 10' the fighter is going to take a hit moving in to engage the zombie, giving the characters three rounds to take it down or see the fighter squashed. With 198Hp I don't know how feasible this is for a 9th level party.

Also, you state it only gained HPs and immunity to criticals - not so Undead traits include ALL the following:

Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).
—Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, and death effects.
—Not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability drain, or energy drain. Immune to damage to its physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), as well as to fatigue and exhaustion effects.
—Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless).
—Not at risk of death from massive damage, but when reduced to 0 hit points or less, it is immediately destroyed.

Also, why has it lost its ability to throw rocks? The zombie template specifically states that the creature does not lose special abilities related to its melee or ranged attacks. So the zombie here should still be able to throw rocks at characters if they are on hand (and one hopes their creator would have given them a handy supply)

I see this as a CR10 at a minimum.

 

[JimAde]

I agree that the CR, as it stands, is too low; and that CR 10 sounds pretty good.

As to the subtype, idhmbifom but I believe you keep subtypes with most templates. Could be wrong though....

I checked and you are right. Zombies do keep sub-types but lose most special abilities and qualities. It mattered for my Winter Wolf (no more breath weapon) but not so much for the giants. BTW, the Fire subtype causes a 50% increase in cold damage, not double.

And they should definitely keep their rock-throwing. Don't forget the extra fire damage if they get a chance to heat the rocks.

 

[the Jester]

Yeah- though they're prolly too stupid to heat the rocks, whoever's controlling them prolly isn't.

 

[Inconsequenti-AL]

I think the mindless aspect does drop the threat somewhat. I'm sure that's taken into account in the CR's of most big undead, vermin, mindless stuff. Get into melee with them and they will win - basically it's fighting them on their own terms... which is never a good idea with anything!

Course, if this thing has throwing rocks it changes things somewhat - no more flying 50' up with a holy undead bane bow!

Surely another factor is the 30 HD - no (apt. CR) cleric is going to be turning this beastie!