My group gets together once every month, as we are all 40-somethings that reunited a year ago to play 4e. The combats can be draggy as we are still learning the system., but I try to add some urgency of pacing to it. We are playing an up scaled Reavers of Harkenwold now, as we started with Keep on the Shadowfell. My guys are 4th, and are about 1,000xp shy of 5th. The last encounters we did were home brewed as I changed part of the adventure to add in a further bit of intrigue and strategy. As such, these encounters flowed a bit better because I was the one who planned them out from the ground up. Although frankly my guys are doing so well that I'm finding I need I toughen up the encounters a bit, but not much. The mm3 and monster vault way of stating out monsters makes combat shorter but potentially deadlier. I had a mist mane bugbear take the fighter down to bloodied in one hit, and that was even a miss on the second attack. Fortunately that's the only attack the bugbear got, as they focused all of their attacks on it and took it down.
Is This How it is Supposed to Be?
Quickleaf
Legend
My group ran thru a one-hour combat last night. It was 3 rounds, so a little over 3-minute long turns.
What was different? Instead of 7 players we had 5 (the newbie paladin player moved, the bard-warlord player couldn't make it), and I pitted them against an encounter equal to their level (13th) comprised of just three 16th level Skirmishers that hit really hard.
I think there is a multiplier effect on the game's complexity (with a corresponding slowing down of combats) with increasing number of players. This comes in the form of excessive "out of turn" actions and some players not able to closely pay attention to 20 minutes of other player turns between their turns.
What was different? Instead of 7 players we had 5 (the newbie paladin player moved, the bard-warlord player couldn't make it), and I pitted them against an encounter equal to their level (13th) comprised of just three 16th level Skirmishers that hit really hard.
I think there is a multiplier effect on the game's complexity (with a corresponding slowing down of combats) with increasing number of players. This comes in the form of excessive "out of turn" actions and some players not able to closely pay attention to 20 minutes of other player turns between their turns.
I agree with [MENTION=463]S'mon[/MENTION] that 4e does not easily support dungeon-crawl style combats. To be worth running, a combat has to be meaningful in and of itself. And (picking up on something [MENTION=22424]delericho[/MENTION] said) the combat has to somehow relate to, or permit the players to express and engage in, the "story" being told.
The WotC 4e modules don't do especially well on either of these criteria, in my experience at least.
The WotC 4e modules don't do especially well on either of these criteria, in my experience at least.
Manbearcat
Legend
See the thread @Quickleaf kindly posted upthread which covers most of your concerns.
- No fiddly feats with conditional tracking.
- Players should have quick-reference, short-hand cards that easily translate their suite of options.
- Egg timer for 1.5 to 2 minutes with a default Move and At-Will Standard action if the player crosses that threshold.
- Have struggling players play Point & Shoot Ranged Classes with minimal overhead; eg PHB Twin-Strike Bow Ranger, Essentials Hunter.
- Conversely, purchase DMG2 (you should do this anyway) and use the Companion Rules. Struggling players can make all manner of fun characters through those rules which will require minimal overhead and thus less table handling time. They can even play animals and things that otherwise would require re-skinning of the current classes!
- Practice, practice, practice! Have a night of just playing out encounters while moving swiftly through turns. This will help condition slower players toward observing, assessing and deploying in a proper, timely manner.
- No fiddly feats with conditional tracking.
- Players should have quick-reference, short-hand cards that easily translate their suite of options.
- Egg timer for 1.5 to 2 minutes with a default Move and At-Will Standard action if the player crosses that threshold.
- Have struggling players play Point & Shoot Ranged Classes with minimal overhead; eg PHB Twin-Strike Bow Ranger, Essentials Hunter.
- Conversely, purchase DMG2 (you should do this anyway) and use the Companion Rules. Struggling players can make all manner of fun characters through those rules which will require minimal overhead and thus less table handling time. They can even play animals and things that otherwise would require re-skinning of the current classes!
- Practice, practice, practice! Have a night of just playing out encounters while moving swiftly through turns. This will help condition slower players toward observing, assessing and deploying in a proper, timely manner.
I think that's part of it. I also think that some Leader players can be really, really slow - the 2 Leaders in my Loudwater group easily take as much time as the other 5 PCs put together. A lot of this is the use of the minor action most rounds, but also their interaction with the other
players, which goes up as group size goes up. I'm tempted to either restrict the number of Leaders in a group, or restrict who can play Leaders. Groups do really suffer without at least one Leader and if the players aren't totally reliable then they need 2 Leaders in case one can't make it.
Damage per Second is a problem with some 4e builds. One way to approach 4e characters is to build up effectiveness per round, while neglecting effectiveness per second.
Many low-damage effects, condition tracking, and the like all increase bookkeeping.
On top of this, the DM has to really be on the ball to keep the game going along. The DM has to move creatures instantly without looking for advantage, has to know every effect like the back of their hand, and has to have a system for keeping track of monster HP/defences/status that doesn't take time -- a slow DM can easily double each player's turn, and then take three times as long themselves for the Monster's turn, as they have to record and add up damage and effects on monsters.
I say "don't look for advantage" as the DM because, if you want to challenge the players you can just use tougher or deadlier monsters.
Having characters that are optimized both for damage per round and damage per second is also key. And having players understand that their goal is to finish their turn in the least amount of time possible...
As an example, you can have everyone use power cards, cut into individual squares. If you have your standard action power card alone, face up, in front of you when your turn happens, give the player a +1 to attack (or, if generous, a +1d4). If you prefer to be cruel, say that if you don't have your standard action power card alone, face up, in front of you when your turn starts you have to use your designated default at-will (unaugmented) power, and reserve the +1d4 die to hit to attacks that occur in the first minute of your turn (use a chess timer or something).
You'll be amazed at how fast combats start to fly.
If your players are relatively low op, and find that challenging combats take too many rounds, halve monster HP and boost non-minion monster counts by 50% (ie, increase the XP budget by 50%) while using only MM3 and MV monsters.
On the player side, you can concentrate on building characters with high DPR and high DPS (damage per round and damage per second). Status effects are fun and effective, but they don't end combat any faster.
Many low-damage effects, condition tracking, and the like all increase bookkeeping.
On top of this, the DM has to really be on the ball to keep the game going along. The DM has to move creatures instantly without looking for advantage, has to know every effect like the back of their hand, and has to have a system for keeping track of monster HP/defences/status that doesn't take time -- a slow DM can easily double each player's turn, and then take three times as long themselves for the Monster's turn, as they have to record and add up damage and effects on monsters.
I say "don't look for advantage" as the DM because, if you want to challenge the players you can just use tougher or deadlier monsters.
Having characters that are optimized both for damage per round and damage per second is also key. And having players understand that their goal is to finish their turn in the least amount of time possible...
As an example, you can have everyone use power cards, cut into individual squares. If you have your standard action power card alone, face up, in front of you when your turn happens, give the player a +1 to attack (or, if generous, a +1d4). If you prefer to be cruel, say that if you don't have your standard action power card alone, face up, in front of you when your turn starts you have to use your designated default at-will (unaugmented) power, and reserve the +1d4 die to hit to attacks that occur in the first minute of your turn (use a chess timer or something).
You'll be amazed at how fast combats start to fly.
If your players are relatively low op, and find that challenging combats take too many rounds, halve monster HP and boost non-minion monster counts by 50% (ie, increase the XP budget by 50%) while using only MM3 and MV monsters.
On the player side, you can concentrate on building characters with high DPR and high DPS (damage per round and damage per second). Status effects are fun and effective, but they don't end combat any faster.
Balesir
Adventurer
Some nice points, but this I have to disagree with unless you have players who really don't like tactical play much. If you just use the blunt instrument of bigger, badder monsters you don't penalise the players for poor positioning (and thus, by the same token, reward them for good positioning) and you don't give them challenging positions to "crack". My players love the tactical game, so just throwing big bad brutes at them with no attempt at good tactics (for reasonablt intelligent foes) would be short-changing them.
I don't completely agree here, either. Daze in particular can make monster damage lower and can make monster turns quicker (since they get to do less!).
Oh, and the right forced move can add damage, too.
S
Sunseeker
Guest
As a DM I don't track status effects put on me, only the ones I create. If a player wants to build a high-status-effect character then it is THEIR job to track those conditions. I specifically built or alter any NPCs I run in order to minimize status effects, I don't like tracking them and I won't be held accountable for tracking yours. If I forget to track something I put on your character, that's my fault, I missed it and there's no do-overs. I hold my players to the same standard, you want lots of crazy effects, YOU track them.
I make a note if a status effect is put on a monster but it is still the players responsible to track conditions their character applies. I may remember but I can't guarantee it. That system typically works pretty well.
sigfile
Explorer
Doesn't that get maddening on your turn? If you don't know who's dazed, slowed, immobilized, or whatever, how are you able to have team monster take any actions without a dozen interruptions/do-overs?
I get having the players track weird status effects (when I'm DMing, monsters under oddball effects get an * next to their names), but basic effects need to be obvious at my tables or it just gets frustrating.
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