Is this paladin in trouble?

[Blackwind]

Okay, so we are a couple weeks into my new Eberron campaign and I am a little worried about Lane, the paladin. She is level 2 and works for the King's Swords, a branch of the Citadel, which is a secret service type organization loyal directly to King Boranel of Breland. The rest of the group, with the exception of the elven monk, is Chaotic. They are also all Good, with the exception of the elven wizard, who is CN. None of the other characters are loyal to Breland; in fact, the other five PCs are all originally from Aerenal (three elves, a pixie, and half-elf/half-shifter).

In any case, I have noticed that Lane is displaying some Chaotic or at least NG tendencies. I think it is only a matter of time before she either willfully violates orders or lies to her superiors in the Citadel, thus precipitating a shift to NG and a "fall from grace." Now, especially since Lane's player, Wendy, is new to the game, it would definitely suck for her to lose all her paladin abilities. So, the question is: what are her options here? The introduction to the ECS says that alignment is sort of vague or questionable in Eberron, but I can't find anywhere else in the book that addresses the question in more depth. And the paladin section seems to imply that they (paladins) should still be held to their alignment restrictions. Are there any PrCs (besides blackguard!) that would somehow compensate for this? I would really appreciate hearing your ideas on this.

 

[ThoughtBubble]

You're DMing this right?

She's not in trouble unless you decide she is.

Everything else is semantics.

 

[Land Outcast]

Got to admit TB put it as simple as it can be, will you cause such a situation?

note: new player? his church gives him a phalactery of faithfulness

 

[Harmon]

Talk to Lane's Player, let him/her know what is up and make a few directed comments about choices made, then there is no surprise when you tell the Player that they need to change their alignment, and will be considered an ex Paladin.

 

[FireLance]

Remember that while it takes a single evil act to make a paladin lose her powers, a paladin can get away with chaotic acts as long as she does not "grossly" violate her code of conduct.

It usually also takes more than a single act to shift alignment, so if the paladin's chaotic or neutral acts remain as just tendencies, there is no reason to change her alignment.

Finally, you can just house-rule that paladins can be NG as well as LG. Most of the paladin's class abilities are directed against evil, not chaos, and are not inherently lawful. The only tweak you might consider making is to remove spells such as protection from chaos, zone of truth, magic circle against chaos, discern lies and dispel chaos from the spell list of non-lawful paladins.

 

[Montague68]

Okay, so we are a couple weeks into my new Eberron campaign and I am a little worried about Lane, the paladin. She is level 2 and works for the King's Swords, a branch of the Citadel, which is a secret service type organization loyal directly to King Boranel of Breland. The rest of the group, with the exception of the elven monk, is Chaotic. They are also all Good, with the exception of the elven wizard, who is CN. None of the other characters are loyal to Breland; in fact, the other five PCs are all originally from Aerenal (three elves, a pixie, and half-elf/half-shifter).

In any case, I have noticed that Lane is displaying some Chaotic or at least NG tendencies. I think it is only a matter of time before she either willfully violates orders or lies to her superiors in the Citadel, thus precipitating a shift to NG and a "fall from grace." Now, especially since Lane's player, Wendy, is new to the game, it would definitely suck for her to lose all her paladin abilities. So, the question is: what are her options here? The introduction to the ECS says that alignment is sort of vague or questionable in Eberron, but I can't find anywhere else in the book that addresses the question in more depth. And the paladin section seems to imply that they (paladins) should still be held to their alignment restrictions. Are there any PrCs (besides blackguard!) that would somehow compensate for this? I would really appreciate hearing your ideas on this.

THere's the Holy Liberator PrC, which is basically a chaotic good paladin.

If I were in your position I would ask the player if they would like to switch. Perhaps Lane's superiors (or deity) realize she isn't suited for the demanding path of the paladin but yet don't want to lose her totally for the cause of good, and have her speak with a representative from a more chaotic-oriented good church. Let her play the Holy Liberator as a chaotic good paladin rather than a PrC, if she wishes.

Especially with new players as long as it doesn't become a continuing thing it's always wise to cut them some slack.

 

[Blackwind]

Thanks for the input, everyone.

ThoughtBubble and Land Outcast: Yes, I am the DM. Yes, I am aware of Rule Zero. I suppose my question was more along the lines of, "What would you do in this situation?"

Harmon: I am definitely planning to talk to the player before our next session. Since alignment in my Eberron campaign is sort of subjective, we really need to clarify what her code is - that is, what constitutes Lawful Good for her. Since she is a member of the King's Swords and has not really specified any other moral code that her character follows, I am assuming that betraying the Swords (or the King, or the country) would constitute a chaotic act for her. And of course I will give her fair warning of the potential consequences

FireLance: Good point. A few minor chaotic or neutral acts are not going to cause her to lose her powers. And this is all relative to her code, of course; for example, in the last session she lied point blank to an agent of House Cannith. I wouldn't even consider that chaotic, since she was following orders from her commanding officer to find out more about House Cannith's plans regarding a specific item. If she lied to her commanding officer, however, that would be problematic. If she did this regularly, or if she willfully acted in a way that would harm the King or the nation, I think her alignment would shift toward neutrality and THEN I would rule that she was no longer a Paladin.

At that point, the question becomes whether or not she loses all her cool powers. At that point, I might just house-rule it and say that although she can't gain levels in paladin anymore, she doesn't lose her powers unless her alignment shifts away from Good. But would that be too easy on her? In a campaign with more experienced players I would enforce the RAW in this situation. However, this is her first experience with D&D and I don't think it would break the game to cut her some slack.

Gearjammer: Thanks for pointing out the Holy Liberator. That's a cool concept and it might be more her speed.

Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if she starts taking levels in Rogue after "falling from grace." After completing her first adventure she started complaining about the armor check penalty of her scale mail and saying that she wanted more stealth. And here I was going to give her some nice heavy armor, lol... New players are always busting up my assumptions about the game.

 

[Herobizkit]

I would consider doing the following:

Don't let her Paladinhood rest on alignment. Give her the Code of Chivalry or some other honour-bound credo and have her "faithfulness" based on her actions within the code. Since she's a new player, banging her over the head with the Alignment stick isn't going to increase her fun...

 

[Numion]

Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if she starts taking levels in Rogue after "falling from grace." After completing her first adventure she started complaining about the armor check penalty of her scale mail and saying that she wanted more stealth. And here I was going to give her some nice heavy armor, lol... New players are always busting up my assumptions about the game.

She's catching on quickly, eh? Just break out the DMG and point to the Blackguard prestige class

I've also noticed that new players are indeed surprising at times. Years ago I got into my group a player whose only contact to D&D was Baldurs Gate I & II. He turned out to be at least as good a roleplayer as my 'old guard'. Greatly alleviated my fears that computer games were ruining RPGs, or just created powergamers.

 

[FireLance]

Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if she starts taking levels in Rogue after "falling from grace." After completing her first adventure she started complaining about the armor check penalty of her scale mail and saying that she wanted more stealth. And here I was going to give her some nice heavy armor, lol... New players are always busting up my assumptions about the game.

If you have Complete Adventurer, look at the Shadowbane Inquisitor. It's a paladin/rogue PrC that might suit her. Plus, I think the Absolute Conviction ability mitigates the effects of changing alignment (need to check this when I get home).

EDIT: Unfortunately, it looks like it only works for the Shadowbane Inquisitor's class abilities and won't help with paladin class abilities.