Is Wall of Thorns as utterly broken as it seems to be?

[anon]

#1 and #4 seem to contradict each other a bit. A huge all of dense vines which doesn't block Line of Sight but does provide cover at >5 feet?

Though I do personally think that Wall of Thorns is fine as is.

Wall of Force in my experiences with it has been essentially in impossible barrier. With that as a comparison I think Wall of Thorns is fine.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Like Wall of Force and a number of other 5th and 6th level spell, some critters/people are going to have problems against the Wall of Thorns.

Grunt style monsters are often SOL. And they should be. They are much more powerful than any typical classed humanoid of similar CR in a fair fight. Only the very brave or very foolish fight such things fairly.

PCs NPCs (classed humanoids) should have tactics for dealing with such inconveniences. There are several 2nd & 3rd level spells that can help avoid or reduce the effect of the WoT. There are oodles of higher level spells that do so. If you do not have some emergency potions/scrolls, and you are going up against a 9th+ level spellcaster, you are not getting any sympathy from me.

A lot of people on these boards cannot seem to wrap their minds around the idea that a good tactician plans for the possibility of temporarily being forced on the defensive.

If those salamanders used up their dispels and the PC held onto a 5th level spell for just right moment, that is a well-earned victory.

 

[Grogtar]

Ridley, I agree with you to an extent. However I think there is a large differences between the two spells in question (Wall of Force and Wall of Thors)

Force is 1 round per level, Thorns 10 mins per level. Making force only usefull for slowing the fight a touch, maybe some battlefield control. But thorns can essutnally END a battle for anyone cought on the other side. Think of a dungeon you run into a mob you dont want to fight - just wall of thorns, and put the encounter off for 2 hours.

The numbers for the damage mitigation on thorns are ludicrous. I dont expect 10th or 12th level fighters to have those AC or Str numbers. Hell, I barely expect 14th or 18th level fighters to have that AC. And making a DC 25 Str Check is 20th level stuff.

I think the question is "Why is this so much better than Wall of Force?" - and its a good question.

It does dmg to those even attempting to pass through it. It has a stupid long durationg. You could shape it to your desire, even to box in someone. You can cast it "on" someone, and force them to either wait at least an hour and a half or die trying to get out. And most importantly - there is no down side.

 

[Tumbler]

I don't think it is particularly overpowered, but I do love the idea of spring attacking rangers running through the thing, attacking, and running back. That said, I'm in a 9th level Dragonlance party right now, and most of the characters would have little trouble with this spell. The Minotaur fighter has AC higher than 25 and generally make a 20 Str Check. The Elf wizard can fly or dimension door out. The cleric could summon a celestial dire badger to dig a tunnel out. My kender might be screwed, but he could ride the elf out or just sit back and use his wand of wonder on the thing until something happened to it. It doesn't seem like such a big deal to me.

As for the duration, delaying a combat 9 rounds vs 90 minutes only really effects rememorization of spells. 9 rounds is plenty of time to heal and buff to heart's content.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

In that case, your expectations of PC abilities don't map very well to the core rules.

Assuming standard PC wealth and standard array stats, a 12th level fighter will typically have:
Str 22 (15+3 lvl +4 item). A 12th level barbarian will typically have Str 30 (15+2 1/2 orc +3 level +4 item +6 rage). So, the check is very difficult but not impossible for the fighter and only moderately difficult for the 12th level barbarian. By 20th level, strength is more likely to be around 31 (15+5 level +5 book +6 belt) for the fighter and 41 for the raging barbarian.

Similarly, excluding dodge and dexterity bonuses to AC, a 12th level fighter will often have:
+3 fullplate, +3 shield (animated if he uses a two handed weapon), +1 ring of protection. (And if he doesn't have +3 armor and shield, he will when the cleric casts magic vestment on them). That's AC 27 right there. A barbarian will often be slightly lower: +3 mithral breastplate, +3 animated shield, +1 ring of protection=AC 24. If he's raging, knock two points off of that, so he'll take a little bit of damage but not much. By 20th level, either character can be expected to have ACs between 35 and 42.

Also keep in mind that there are several other counters to the spell other than the mentioned teleport. Freedom of Movement (the big one for divine casters), blink, dimension door (the big one for arcane casters), gaseous form, etc would all work to enable a character to evad the spell. Flight would be very effective as well. A rogue or monk with sufficient ranks in balance could even, in theory, balance on top of the wall of thorns as long as they weren't in the effect when it went off (if they were, the monk has to have an ally with dimension door, freedom of movement, etc, or abundant step out of the wall and the rogue will need help from his allies or use magic device). (And, if all else fails, the trapped creatures can always pull out bows and fire back just as effectively as their enemies can fire at them).

The real vulnerable group is monsters without magical or special abilities or ranged attacks. A fiendish tyranosaurus or a hydra is almost guaranteed to be delayed for quite a while. Similarly, a group of high HD zombies will be shredded. But such monsters are supposed to have an achilles heel and are just as helpless against PCs with bows and mass fly.

The numbers for the damage mitigation on thorns are ludicrous. I dont expect 10th or 12th level fighters to have those AC or Str numbers. Hell, I barely expect 14th or 18th level fighters to have that AC. And making a DC 25 Str Check is 20th level stuff.

 

[beaver1024]

In that case, your expectations of PC abilities don't map very well to the core rules.

Assuming standard PC wealth and standard array stats, a 12th level fighter will typically have:
Str 22 (15+3 lvl +4 item). A 12th level barbarian will typically have Str 30 (15+2 1/2 orc +3 level +4 item +6 rage). So, the check is very difficult but not impossible for the fighter and only moderately difficult for the 12th level barbarian. By 20th level, strength is more likely to be around 31 (15+5 level +5 book +6 belt) for the fighter and 41 for the raging barbarian.

Similarly, excluding dodge and dexterity bonuses to AC, a 12th level fighter will often have:
+3 fullplate, +3 shield (animated if he uses a two handed weapon), +1 ring of protection. (And if he doesn't have +3 armor and shield, he will when the cleric casts magic vestment on them). That's AC 27 right there. A barbarian will often be slightly lower: +3 mithral breastplate, +3 animated shield, +1 ring of protection=AC 24. If he's raging, knock two points off of that, so he'll take a little bit of damage but not much. By 20th level, either character can be expected to have ACs between 35 and 42.

Also keep in mind that there are several other counters to the spell other than the mentioned teleport. Freedom of Movement (the big one for divine casters), blink, dimension door (the big one for arcane casters), gaseous form, etc would all work to enable a character to evad the spell. Flight would be very effective as well. A rogue or monk with sufficient ranks in balance could even, in theory, balance on top of the wall of thorns as long as they weren't in the effect when it went off (if they were, the monk has to have an ally with dimension door, freedom of movement, etc, or abundant step out of the wall and the rogue will need help from his allies or use magic device). (And, if all else fails, the trapped creatures can always pull out bows and fire back just as effectively as their enemies can fire at them).

This is not true of PCs at 1st level because that's when this spell is available to druids.

 

[DevoutlyApathetic]

This is not true of PCs at 1st level because that's when this spell is available to druids.

They're talking about Wall of Thorns, a 5th level druid spell, which is available at 9th level and up.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

This is not true of PCs at 1st level because that's when this spell is available to druids.

Wall of Thorns available to 1st-level PCs?

I don't think so - unless you're talking about the Greenbond Summoning feat (which is, by itself, ridiculously overpowered)?

 

[Hypersmurf]

I don't think so - unless you're talking about the Greenbond Summoning feat (which is, by itself, ridiculously overpowered)?

Well, that's how I'd get access to Wall of Thorns as a 1st level druid!

-Hyp.

 

[beaver1024]

They're talking about Wall of Thorns, a 5th level druid spell, which is available at 9th level and up.

Greenbound summoning.