Is Wall of Thorns as utterly broken as it seems to be?

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Greenbound summoning.

Which is a problem with Greenbond Summoning, and not the spell itself.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Greenbound summoning.

It strikes me as a bit backwards to claim that Wall of Thorns, a core spell in the PH and SRD, is overpowered because of its interaction with a non-core feat. Rather, it seems more appropriate to note the non-core feat is the overpowered element, granting a high-level spell to druids far before they were intented to have access to it.

 

[Thanee]

Pretty obvious, really.
The spell is some weird still, even though.

Where is that feat from, BTW? Not overly familiar with druid feats.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

It's an FR feat from a recent book. The author originally submitted it as a metamagic feat which could be applied spontaneously to a Summon Nature's Ally spell, but it was changed to a general feat (for reasons no one can really explain).

 

[likuidice]

Damage reduction

Any creature forced into or attempting to move through a wall of thorns takes slashing damage per round of movement equal to 25 minus the creature’s AC. Dexterity and dodge bonuses to AC do not count for this calculation. (Creatures with an Armor Class of 25 or higher, without considering Dexterity and dodge bonuses, take no damage from contact with the wall.)

Damage reduction should be effective against this damage, allowing the more lightly armoured barbarian to ignore some of it, or monsters with innate damage reduction to wade through, or even an item that grants damage reduction/magic, as it's listed only as slashing damage, not magical slashing damage.

 

[Thanee]

It's an FR feat from a recent book.

Maybe Waterdeep? Don't have that yet...

Bye
Thanee

 

[Rhun]

Damage reduction should be effective against this damage, allowing the more lightly armoured barbarian to ignore some of it, or monsters with innate damage reduction to wade through, or even an item that grants damage reduction/magic, as it's listed only as slashing damage, not magical slashing damage.

I was thinking along these same lines, and I believe the Salamanders in question DO have damage resistance. Combined with their AC, I would have ruled that they take no damage from moving through the WoT, although they still would have had to make their strength checks to do so.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

If those salamanders used up their dispels and the PC held onto a 5th level spell for just right moment, that is a well-earned victory.

word. Wall of thorns is an excellent tactical spell. That doesn't qualify as "broken".

 

[IcyCool]

Ridley, I agree with you to an extent. However I think there is a large differences between the two spells in question (Wall of Force and Wall of Thors)

Wall of Thors? Well hell, that is an overpowered spell.

Force is 1 round per level, Thorns 10 mins per level. Making force only usefull for slowing the fight a touch, maybe some battlefield control. But thorns can essutnally END a battle for anyone cought on the other side. Think of a dungeon you run into a mob you dont want to fight - just wall of thorns, and put the encounter off for 2 hours.

Keep in mind that you will be at least 9th level before being able to throw this spell around (FR feats aside). If you need buffing time, what are you going to want? An impassable barrier, or something that most competent CR 9 and up creatures can pass right through? Is it great against mobs? Yep. Will mobs try and swarm their way through a wall of thorns? Not unless they are really stupid. They'll spend their time cutting it away or burning it. So it probably buys you maybe 10 minutes, if the goons on the other side don't have access to Dispel Magic, Fly, Teleport, D-door, Freedom of Movement, etc. Should this spell be an effective wall to goons and minions? If it"s not then I'd want my fifth level spell back.

The numbers for the damage mitigation on thorns are ludicrous. I dont expect 10th or 12th level fighters to have those AC or Str numbers. Hell, I barely expect 14th or 18th level fighters to have that AC. And making a DC 25 Str Check is 20th level stuff.

As has been pointed out, those AC's are easily reachable by those levels. The strength check is a little rough, but for those who will be trying the strength check, they'll have a good shot at it. A wizard trying to move through with a strength check gets what he deserves.

I think the question is "Why is this so much better than Wall of Force?" - and its a good question.

That answer is easy. It isn't.

And most importantly - there is no down side.

How about, "it's a slot you could've used on Flamestrike."

*shrug* Wall spells are meant to be crowd control. There are numerous ways around it, and it's fantastic against mooks. Sounds pretty much good to me.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Damage reduction should be effective against this damage, allowing the more lightly armoured barbarian to ignore some of it, or monsters with innate damage reduction to wade through, or even an item that grants damage reduction/magic, as it's listed only as slashing damage, not magical slashing damage.

DR only applies against wall of thorns if you don't consider wall of thorns to be a spell. DR doesn't apply.

IMO, spells that don't allow saves or SR are to be monitored very closely. Spells of less than 8th (maybe 7th) level that don't allow saves or SR and that can directly affect opponents (meaning, be cast on them in their area) are by definition broken. I think a good fix to this is to allow a save and/or SR if the wall erupts around the opponents, just like blade barrier.