D&D 5E Is Warlock broken?

[The Crimson Binome]

Well, *some* of us do....

I know, but specifically the person I was quoting was okay with the Battle Master. Not saying that the Warlock style works for everyone, but if you're okay with the Battle Master resource management, then you should also be okay with the Warlock resource management.

And Pacing is not so easily achieved in 5e.

That's a player issue, though. Part of the challenge of the game is to make the best use of your spell slots, without wasting them and running dry. You don't know how many fights there will be in a day, though. The major appeal of the Champion is that you have very few resources to juggle, so you always operate near peak efficiency.

Never once had call to use more than two spells per rest? Ever? That's...well, I mean I can't really argue with your experience, but it's a tad hard to square.

Since they hit level 11, I said. Level 11 is huge. At level 11, the Warlock gets a third spell slot per short rest.

More importantly, and relevant to the topic at hand, level 11 is where the Warlock picks up Mystic Arcanum - one level six spell that can be used once per day. And the problem with only knowing one spell with its own dedicated spell slot is that you don't always want to use that particular spell. Our Warlock chose the Circle of Death spell, because he needed something that wasn't fire damage, and that spell is particularly tricky to pull off with a party since it has such a huge radius. It's a spell that he ends up not casting, most days; and the same has been true of his other Mystic Arcanum spells. During the four or five sessions between gaining level 11 and gaining level 13, he never ended up using that particular spell in the same day when he ran out of three-per-short-rest Fireballs. Since then, there's never been a day where he used all of his Mystic Arcanum spells in the same day.

And the fact that the game gives you fewer choices and FORCES you to scrimp and save lest you screw yourself doesn't exactly speak well of the class...

As a player of AD&D 2E, this is the part that really appeals to me - the spellcaster who doesn't know all of the spells, and doesn't have the solution to every problem, but is forced to make do with what they have. It's something that's been missing from the modern editions, and I don't think 5E goes far enough in recapturing that experience.

 

[Ashrym]

Regarding rests and number of encounters per day. I am not sure where some DM's seem to struggle with 6-8 encounters per day. I mix it up and a typical dungeon can easily break 12 easier encounters. Long rest spell recovery sucks when going through 3 levels of crypts and 30 to 45 rooms / areas as opposed to fitting in 2 or 3 short rests that the group will take anyway so that they can spend hit dice for healing.

It's the longer, more challenging encounters between long or short rests where other spell casters can spend more slots where we see them shine but spending them earlier means they aren't available later. When those spell casters are low on spells and the warlock can still renew 5th level slots they are more appealing while everyone else is limited to cantrips and rituals.

Throw in more dungeon crawls and mix the encounter day up more and both have there advantages.

I think it might be helpful to conceptualize concentration not as *physically* taxing but as *mentally* taxing. Something akin to mentally repeating the word "potato" every few seconds, but utilizing a different part of your brain than the speech center (since speaking doesn't interfere with it.)

No reason you couldn't do so while resting, eating, etc. but getting punched in the face might cause you to miss a beat.

On that same note, I can easily take a meal break and rest while focusing on work. There is no indication that concentration is strenuous. There is indication that it's not strenuous based on activities allowed in conjunction with concentration, tweet indication from devs that they work together, and the duration of concentration required spells that allow concentration for longer than a short rest takes.

Concentration is already a huge restriction for spell casters without intentionally creating a new artificial restriction and then trying to rationalize it's existence for the sake of having yet another restriction about which to argue.

A DM can choose to create and enforce such a restriction and then rationalize it, but it doesn't exist until that DM makes it exist.

I wouldn't consider these invocations as a bladelock because those spell slots are precious and, more often than not, are used to hurt things or stop yourself from getting hurt. Especially if you're going to get stuck in on a regular basis. I'd be more inclined to look at them if I was playing chain or tome, though.

I wouldn't change anything about how the warlocks spells or invocations work, though - I think they work just fine.

Most games don't go to a high enough level where there are enough invocations that those ones become even a minor consideration. The abilities aren't that bad but in comparison to other invocations there are obviously better choices and that's why those ones look bad.

I might take one on a blade warlock. My dwarf didn't cast as many spells because he did a lot of melee in that campaign so I would have worried less about that per day restriction. I don't remember what I took instead but have a definite preference for at-will SLA's because those are the draw for the class. Without those I doubt I would play and enjoy the class at all.

 

[Ancalagon]

The high level spells (mystic arcanum), I perfectly understand why those slots are once a day, not once per short rest. The balance reason is obvious.

What I don't understand is why these slots are restricted to a single spell! As noted above, this is quite restrictive and I don't understand why.

 

[Caliban]

The high level spells (mystic arcanum), I perfectly understand why those slots are once a day, not once per short rest. The balance reason is obvious.

What I don't understand is why these slots are restricted to a single spell! As noted above, this is quite restrictive and I don't understand why.

They aren't spell slots. Each Mystic Arcanum is a single casting of a specific spell, once per day, that doesn't use a spell slot.

You can't cast it using a higher level slot because it doesn't use a slot (and the 3 spell slots you do have are all 5th level), and you can't replace it with a lower level spell to get the benefits of using a higher level spell slot because (once again) the mystic arcanum doesn't use a spell slot.

Think of them like 1/day spell-like ability (to borrow from 3rd edition terminology). As for why, my guess is an attempt to balance them against the full casters who only get 1 or 2 slots (at most) for spell levels 6-9, while keeping with the theme of them being even more restricted than sorcerers for available spells.

 

[Ancalagon]

They aren't spell slots. Each Mystic Arcanum is a single casting of a specific spell, once per day, that doesn't use a spell slot.

You can't cast it using a higher level slot because it doesn't use a slot (and the 3 spell slots you do have are all 5th level), and you can't replace it with a lower level spell to get the benefits of using a higher level spell slot because (once again) the mystic arcanum doesn't use a spell slot.

Think of them like 1/day spell-like ability (to borrow from 3rd edition terminology). As for why, my guess is an attempt to balance them against the full casters who only get 1 or 2 slots (at most) for spell levels 6-9, while keeping with the theme of them being even more restricted than sorcerers for available spells.

Oh I know they aren't "proper" slots but more like pseudo-slots, or a bit like you say spell like abilities. By having each mystic arcanum being 1/day, not usable to shoot a super potent fireball etc etc, the balance with the other high level casters is achieved.

*However* their spell list for level 6-9 is already quite short. Having only 1 spell known per level is *amazingly* restrictive, far more than a sorcerer, as [MENTION=6775031]Saelorn[/MENTION] pointed out.

 

[SailorNash]

Mystic Arcanum is a whole nother thing. They're balanced against spell slots, but you can't upcast lower spells if needed and can only use your one selection for that level, ever.

They're pseudo-slots, and not too hard to comprehend as 1x/day SLA's. Obviously separated to divorce them from auto-scaling and refresh mechanics. But when you have some pact magic, some arcanum, some at-will and some daily invocations, it just seems like awkward design.

 

[Falling Icicle]

I'm joining this discussion a bit late, but there's something I'd like to add regarding the warlock's spell slots. There are quite a few spells that don't scale with higher level slots, such as detect thoughts, misty step, suggestion, hypnotic pattern, Evard's black tentacles, etc. When a warlock has higher level slots and casts these spells, that extra spell power is effectively wasted. It matters if someone tries to counterspell or dispel them, but that's very situational and doesn't come up very often. A wizard or sorcerer can just cast a spell like suggestion using a 2nd level slot - no problem. If a warlock wants to cast it, he can only spend one of his precious couple of slots, and the fact that it's a 5th level slot usually doesn't matter.

Even a ring of spell storing doesn't really help the warlock with this issue. Once he reaches 9th+ level, the spell uses a 5th level slot and fills up all of the space in the ring, whether he wants it to or not. A wizard can put two 2nd level misty steps and a 1st level shield in the ring. A warlock can only put a 5th level misty step into the ring, which is a waste since a 5th level misty step has no more effect than a 2nd level one.

This could be regarded as more of a problem with the spells themselves than the warlock class (there are too many spells that don't scale with slot level). It affects other spellcasters as well, such as when a wizard is out of 1st level slots and has to waste a higher level slot casting it, but it affects warlocks more than other spellcasters because they don't have any lower level slots to spend.

Still, I think warlocks are a really cool class, despite their flaws.

 

[ChrisCarlson]

I'm joining this discussion a bit late, but there's something I'd like to add regarding the warlock's spell slots. There are quite a few spells that don't scale with higher level slots, such as detect thoughts, misty step, suggestion, hypnotic pattern, Evard's black tentacles, etc. When a warlock has higher level slots and casts these spells, that extra spell power is effectively wasted. It matters if someone tries to counterspell or dispel them, but that's very situational and doesn't come up very often. A wizard or sorcerer can just cast a spell like suggestion using a 2nd level slot - no problem. If a warlock wants to cast it, he can only spend one of his precious couple of slots, and the fact that it's a 5th level slot usually doesn't matter.

Even a ring of spell storing doesn't really help the warlock with this issue. Once he reaches 9th+ level, the spell uses a 5th level slot and fills up all of the space in the ring, whether he wants it to or not. A wizard can put two 2nd level misty steps and a 1st level shield in the ring. A warlock can only put a 5th level misty step into the ring, which is a waste since a 5th level misty step has no more effect than a 2nd level one.

This could be regarded as more of a problem with the spells themselves than the warlock class (there are too many spells that don't scale with slot level). It affects other spellcasters as well, such as when a wizard is out of 1st level slots and has to waste a higher level slot casting it, but it affects warlocks more than other spellcasters because they don't have any lower level slots to spend.

Yeah. In fact, one of the most mentioned warlock-cheese tactics is the darkness/devil's sight combo. Yet the darkness spell does not scale up with level. Funny that.

Still, I think warlocks are a really cool class, despite their flaws.

Me too.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

I know, but specifically the person I was quoting was okay with the Battle Master. Not saying that the Warlock style works for everyone, but if you're okay with the Battle Master resource management, then you should also be okay with the Warlock resource management.

That's fair. I couldn't tell if you (personal!) were using the "generic you" or the "personal you."

That's a player issue, though. Part of the challenge of the game is to make the best use of your spell slots, without wasting them and running dry. You don't know how many fights there will be in a day, though. The major appeal of the Champion is that you have very few resources to juggle, so you always operate near peak efficiency.

I...don't entirely agree, there. Pacing is something negotiated between players and DM. The DM can't truly make the players rest (and rest-denial is dangerous when not used sparingly) which gives the players as a whole (but not individually) control over one aspect of pacing. But the players can't just decide when they get into fights or what the opposition will be, either, giving the DM control over another aspect of pacing.

Since they hit level 11, I said. Level 11 is huge. At level 11, the Warlock gets a third spell slot per short rest.

Right, that's why I asked about never needing more than two spells per short rest--because I had thought 3 spells would mean "running out." I wasn't counting Mystic Arcanum spells in that number, and I don't really think it's entirely "fair" to do so--any more than one would count the once-per-long-rest Invocation spells.

Though...having a super narrow selection, where you would LOVE to get an opportunity to use the spell you have, but never do...again, doesn't really strike me as a particularly great execution. If anything, it means the Warlock is *extra* shafted, since most Wizards will know (and have prepared) multiple spells of any given level.

As a player of AD&D 2E, this is the part that really appeals to me - the spellcaster who doesn't know all of the spells, and doesn't have the solution to every problem, but is forced to make do with what they have. It's something that's been missing from the modern editions, and I don't think 5E goes far enough in recapturing that experience.

Well, I dunno if that was missing from 4e. You could only have two Dailies prepped as a Wizard, and everyone else only got one. Everything else required rituals--and unless the DM is hyper-relaxed about rituals, you're not guaranteed to know all the ones you'd want to use. The limitations on free rituals per day being another factor--you might know a ritual, but not have special components necessary to cast it.

I agree that 5e doesn't enable that experience nearly enough...it just sucks that none of the casters EXCEPT the Warlock has to deal with that kind of limitation. The way I see it, you should go all in with that--don't leave just one class, or even a couple, sitting on one side of the line.

 

[Shatners_bassoon]

Mystic Arcanum is a whole nother thing. They're balanced against spell slots, but you can't upcast lower spells if needed and can only use your one selection for that level, ever.

They're pseudo-slots, and not too hard to comprehend as 1x/day SLA's. Obviously separated to divorce them from auto-scaling and refresh mechanics. But when you have some pact magic, some arcanum, some at-will and some daily invocations, it just seems like awkward design.

I've been playing a warlock for the most of last year and it seems simple and elegant to me?

At 13th level now and I've got 4 cantrips and 3 spells from invocations that I can cast at will. Then I've got 10 (if I remember?) spells at levels 1-5 that I can cast 3 times that recharge on a short rest. Finally, I've got a 6th and 7th level spell that recharge on a long rest.

Each of these options come with background fluff that explain why they're different. I've never felt like I'm 'out' of spell casting options or less able a caster and our party is full of casting characters.

I don't mind the limitations at the higher level spells. It sits well for me thematically. I agree with the posters above, warlocks are cool. They're edgy and provide great role playing opportunities because they walk a fine line with their patrons.

Example.

I just levelled up to 13th last session. After careful consideration I took plane shift for my 7th level mystic arcanum. So I'm like, 'hey DM, where the hell do I find a tuning fork attuned to a plane of existence?' The next day I wake to find a fork tuned to the 9 hells with the instructions to 'send fresh souls'.

Cool.