D&D 5E Is WotC ever going to release something high level? Even as UA test material?

[Zardnaar]

I think this is one reason why home conversions from other editions works so well - the high level GM *already* has to tailor the material to his group, and doing a conversion to 5e you're not fooled into thinking the work has already been done for you.

I recommend using the second half of Paizo APs, quality varies (I bought a fire giants adventure that was terrible) but there is a lot of good stuff that easily converts to 5e 15-20; eg the second half of Rise of the Runelords and Shattered Star which I am using currently. There is also good OSR stuff, which can take slightly more work - eg JN3 Saga of the Giants, which is free in pdf and print-at-cost - http://www.basicfantasy.org/downloads.html

For those who find hordes of giants overwhelming in 5e, adding 50% to OSR/BX type D&D levels works well, so eg levels 8-12 becomes 12-18. With Pathfinder it's more like 25%, eg level 10 in PF works as level 13 in 5e.

I ran Monkey Isle. Those free Basicfantasy adventures are actually quite good and free.

 

[S'mon]

I ran Monkey Isle. Those free Basicfantasy adventures are actually quite good and free.

Yup I loved Monkey Isle (GM'd it for my son, then a return group trip), especially the jungle temples. It's like Isle of Dread, a mid level adventure suitable for BFRPG/BX levels 3-6, more like 5-8 in 5e I think unless the
group bring lots of redshirts.

 

[Zardnaar]

Yup I loved Monkey Isle (GM'd it for my son, then a return group trip), especially the jungle temples. It's like Isle of Dread, a mid level adventure suitable for BFRPG/BX levels 3-6, more like 5-8 in 5e I think unless the
group bring lots of redshirts.

You do know those BFRPG modules are love letters to the B/X originals?

Monkey Isle was good though.

 

[S'mon]

You do know those BFRPG modules are love letters to the B/X originals?

Monkey Isle was good though.

Monkey Isle is BX Isle of Dread expy, I like it better than Isle of Dread.
Saga of the Giants is 1e Against the Giants expy.
There is also a Keep on the Borderlands expy The Chaotic Caves, also by Neale.

 

[MNblockhead]

While I don't agree with the tenor of many of CapnZapp's posts, he did give the most constructive suggestions on what high-level materials might look like.

Others have mentioned higher-tier monsters, and that would be nice, but Tome of Beasts and other third-party material are already currently available.

I also do not want an AP that goes from 1-20, unless it had aggressive milestone advancement. Even if I completely replaced my current (now level 16) campaign, I would never finish a 1-20 AP.

What I would welcome is a 15-20 AP or setting book that was perhaps 1/3 adventure or setting fluff, 1/3 optional rules and DM tips for high-level play, and 1/3 high-level monsters and templates for increasing the challenge of existing monsters. This is in line with CapnZapp's suggestions, I think.

But the more that I think of it it, what I REALLY want is a Tales of the Yawning Portal sequel with all epic-level adventures. Each should come with pre-gen characters designed to play well with that adventure, but also tips for GMs to alter the adventure to make it suitable to their players (based on player experience and preferred play styles, character powers and party makeup, etc.).

I understand that most potential buyers down't want to buy a long campaign that they will never finish, but I think MANY would LOVE to play a high-level game as a one shot or as a mini-campaign.

The argument that high-level adventures are too difficult to write, because at that level character builds and player experience are too varied, falls flat. There are many gifted designers that could write compelling plots AND give advice and tips to inexperience DM for re-skinning monsters, traps, and challenges to calibrate the adventure to their group. And for the truly lazy and inexperienced (e.g. me), they should include pre-gens.

The problem I have with WoTC's adventure-publishing strategy is that it is campaign focused. I understand that it is important to address the needs of all the new players coming into the D&D fold via 5e to have enough adventure material and setting fluff to play the game without demanding too much from the new DMs. But we have plenty of such material to keep new DMs and players busy playing for years now. I think that fans are going to start getting AP fatigue. Yet there is still, I believe, a large and largely untapped demand for one-off and drop-in adventures. I bought Curse of Straud and Storm Kings Thunder but have not yet had time to play either. I've already, however, played through two of the adventures in Tales from the Yawning Portal.

A collection of short high-level adventures, along with a section of crunch for high-level play, and some new monsters would be a certain must-buy for me. And, I believe, for many others.

 

[DEFCON 1]

A collection of short high-level adventures, along with a section of crunch for high-level play, and some new monsters would be a certain must-buy for me. And, I believe, for many others.

Well, we're at the point where we might indeed see if your thoughts are in fact possible and true. If Goodman Games goes all-in on revamping old modules for 5E... such that they make as many as say 10 or more of them per year... I'd be surprised if they *didn't* make at least one or two of those revamps playable by PCs in the Level 15-20 range. Then at that point... all those who want "high-level" adventures have a more official (if they aren't counting DMs Guild as official enough) release to pick up and play.

At that point, the question then becomes "are these Level 15-20 modules actually useful to people?" and the number of copies bought will end up reflecting that. If people have any hope of WotC finally writing and releasing one... as I said back on Page 1 that you all better put your money where your mouths are and buying these modules as they come out. Otherwise you will just be confirming for WotC that indeed, there *is no* market for high-level adventures because even the ones that do get released, very few people buy.

 

[BMaC]

High level adventures will sell less than the 1-11 hardbacks. That is a given. Two unrelated questions: 1) Will they nevertheless be profitable? and 2) should WotC feel obligated to support its game across the whole range of levels for which it is ostensibly designed?

 

[MNblockhead]

Well, we're at the point where we might indeed see if your thoughts are in fact possible and true. If Goodman Games goes all-in on revamping old modules for 5E... such that they make as many as say 10 or more of them per year... I'd be surprised if they *didn't* make at least one or two of those revamps playable by PCs in the Level 15-20 range. Then at that point... all those who want "high-level" adventures have a more official (if they aren't counting DMs Guild as official enough) release to pick up and play.

At that point, the question then becomes "are these Level 15-20 modules actually useful to people?" and the number of copies bought will end up reflecting that. If people have any hope of WotC finally writing and releasing one... as I said back on Page 1 that you all better put your money where your mouths are and buying these modules as they come out. Otherwise you will just be confirming for WotC that indeed, there *is no* market for high-level adventures because even the ones that do get released, very few people buy.

That's a good point. The only area of disagreement is that simply providing a high-level module, without providing assistance to new DMs on how to run and customize high-level games may not do as well because many DMs will be intimidated to run such games.

You can say that if they have already run an AP, DMs should be ready to run high-level play. I'm not so sure that is the case.

I've been running a home brew campaign for about two years now. Players are level 16. I find that I have to spend a lot more time on game prep. Much of that extra time is due to having to really try to war game how things will go with all the higher level abilities and spells. I still find it difficult to calibrate encounters and challenges.

So it is not that I'm just saying that their is a demand for higher-level adventures, but that there will be a demand for material to help DMs prep and run those adventures.

This is one way that Goodman Games could add value to the their revamped classic modules. They should include pre-gens with the modules and module-specific tips on how to run and customize the adventure. If GG or WoTC can make high-level adventures easy to pick up and run without a great deal of prep, than I think they should sell well.

 

[MNblockhead]

High level adventures will sell less than the 1-11 hardbacks. That is a given.

Is it a given? At some point, will they not reach a critical mass of players who want something more than the 10 or 15 levels? Either to bring their charters to the end of their story arcs or to just play a high-level-only game (start at 15).

Two unrelated questions: 1) Will they nevertheless be profitable? and 2) should WotC feel obligated to support its game across the whole range of levels for which it is ostensibly designed?

Even if the low-level adventure paths remain the best sells, which seems likely for the some time, I think that there is enough demand for high-level material to sell well.

Should WotC feel obligated to support the game to level 20? They should feel obligated to make a profit and increase the value of Hasbro shareholder's investments. There is no moral imperative for them to make high-level game, but I think it would be profitable and good for the brand. It will make the game stickier. I love low-level play and prefer tier one over epic level for the most part. But occasionally I want a super-hero-level play experience, either as a one-shot, mini-campaign, or the end cap to a long campaign. Right now I either have to do all the work myself, or play a different game.

That said, I do appreciate the posts mentioning AL material for sale on DMs Guild. I keep forgetting about that and will make sure to check it out.

 

[KahlessNestor]

High level adventures will sell less than the 1-11 hardbacks. That is a given. Two unrelated questions: 1) Will they nevertheless be profitable? and 2) should WotC feel obligated to support its game across the whole range of levels for which it is ostensibly designed?

Translation: "Should WOTC be forced to lose money putting out products because of a few squeaky wheels on the interwebs."

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