Is WOTC falling into a problem like the old TSR did

[Hussar]

I don't think smaller and hobbyist auotmatically equates to "unprofessional," either. I don't have a problem with quality production values, etc. You can still have professional companies that serve a small market. Would it be exactly the same as now? Obviously, not. But the death of RPGs, with the sky-falling and nothing but crap being produced? I don't think so.

But PJ, that describes the state of the game pre-AD&D release and look at the stuff that came out of that time. Sure, there's great stuff. I don't for a moment deny that. However, there's an awful lot of forgettable material as well. And, economies of scale being what they are, I don't particularly want to see D&D books for a 90 bucks a pop. A 200 ish page hardbound full color book by anyone other than WOTC is going to have to price it in that range.

 

[Philotomy Jurament]

But PJ, that describes the state of the game pre-AD&D release and look at the stuff that came out of that time. Sure, there's great stuff. I don't for a moment deny that. However, there's an awful lot of forgettable material as well. And, economies of scale being what they are, I don't particularly want to see D&D books for a 90 bucks a pop. A 200 ish page hardbound full color book by anyone other than WOTC is going to have to price it in that range.

I admit that full color hardbacks of that size would probably fall out of favor in a smaller market; as you say, the economies of scale would make them cost-prohibitive. It wouldn't be the same. However, I don't think it would be a return to the pre-AD&D days/situation, either. The situation today is far different, with things like print-on-demand, Lulu, PrintFu, PDF, offering opportunities outside of (and in addition to) the traditional print and distribution chain. The Internet makes small markets much more viable (and even more "professional") than they might have been in the past. There're also non-traditional models like pre-order "voting" on what products to produce. Some companies producing wargames (e.g. Multiman Publishing, GMT Games) are successfully using that model so they know where to devote their resources.

I'm not arguing that a smaller/hobbyist market is necessarily better. However, I don't think it would be terrible for the hobby, either. If WotC crashed and burned, the hobby would live on and the market would adapt and reinvent itself.

Personally, I think the market is probably going to fragment a bit, even with Wizards still going strong. In one of his Line of Sight articles, Monte Cook mentioned that he thought the success of 3E was something of a "perfect storm," and that those conditions are probably not going to repeat themselves for 4E (although you never know). I think he's right about that. And thank God (and Wizards of the Coast) for the OGL.

 

[Ranger REG]

Honestly? Rules bloat, which is a taste thing,

Rules bloat? Too much crunch for you?

Can't be helped. Your fellow fans want them.

and what I feel is the wildly varying quality of their products, also taste. For every Heroes of Horror, you get two or three books of lesser quality, like MMIV.

Meh. TSR suffered the same problem. Even other companies, too.

I know, you expect WotC to have a much higher standard now that they're part of a corporate family.

I was ecstatic when PHB II hit the shelves, and it seemed all the better for the sub-par material released around the same time. The rules-focused (and market driven) bent WotC has bugs me a bit. That's my take. I'd much rather see supplementary material for settings, but we all know that doesn't sell as well.

Rules or Tools? As I said before, their customers want crunch. Only few of us want a balance of crunch and fluff. Which is weird because the customers that want crunch and no fluff because they can come up with their own fluff, are the same customers that want adventure modules.

 

[Ranger REG]

I'm not arguing that a smaller/hobbyist market is necessarily better. However, I don't think it would be terrible for the hobby, either. If WotC crashed and burned, the hobby would live on and the market would adapt and reinvent itself.

???

You make it sounds like the RPG hobby as a whole can only exist as long as the current D&D publisher (that is WotC) continues to publish D&D.

 

[Philotomy Jurament]

???

You make it sounds like the RPG hobby as a whole can only exist as long as the current D&D publisher (that is WotC) continues to publish D&D.

Was that the impression I gave? I guess so, which is amusing. Partly that's because I had Monte's article in mind while I was writing, and he said something along the lines of "...as goes Wizards, so goes the industry...," and made the point that I.C.E. lived on the "scraps from TSR's table." (That's paraphrased -- I'm too lazy to look up exactly what he said.)

I do think the the current RPG market is driven by the engine of Wizards, and I think a crash of Wizards would have huge impact on the market (even the non-D&D RPG market), but as I've said, the market would adjust and the hobby would live on.

 

[Glyfair]

Euro/light-strategy games have exploded, but I don't think the wargame/conflict-sim market is as big as it used to be. I don't have any numbers -- that's just a guess, really. Nevertheless, I think it's safe to say the wargame market is way out of the mainstream (i.e. essentially hobbyist), and small compared to other game markets.

Based on the recent trends of hobby stores, it seems that wargames are holding steady. In contrast, board games are rising, RPGs are way, way down (although there are signs they might be slightly recovering or at least the fall is slowing).

 

[Philotomy Jurament]

Based on the recent trends of hobby stores, it seems that wargames are holding steady. In contrast, board games are rising, RPGs are way, way down (although there are signs they might be slightly recovering or at least the fall is slowing).

I've been contributing to the rise of board games. For years, my wife has been bugging me about playing board games, which she loves to do, and I hated it and referred to them as "bored games." I'd complain about the games (which were usually stuff like Monopoly, Sorry, Cranium, etc), and she finally got sick of it and said "Fine. Order some games you'd like, then."

I used to play Avalon Hill games, way back, so I Googled around and found boardgamegeek. Then I picked up Settlers of Catan, Ticket to Ride: Europe, and Shadows Over Camelot. My wife loved them (especially Ticket to Ride), and I thought they were much better than Monopoly and games of that ilk. From there, we started getting other stuff: Carcassone, Arkham Horror (and the Dunwich Horror expansion), Dread Pirare (so-so, IMO), Cleopatra, Lord of the Rings, et cetera.

Then I got Memoir '44 (and later, BattleLore). Lots of fun, and got me wanting a heavier wargame, again. I ordered the free (you pay shipping) game from MMP: Target Arnhem: Across Six Bridges. Very nice. I also ordered Three Battles of Manassas, Advanced Squad Leader Starter Kit #2, and Bonaparte at Marengo. I'd like to get A Victory Lost, Friedrich, Fire in the Sky, Hammer of the Scots, Pax Romana, and probably some others, too.

Anyway, the board game and wargame bug bit me hard. I've been having a blast.

 

[Jim Hague]

Hmm - far below what they should cost is dependent upon the distribution and production model in use, no? Artwork, nice layout, quality paper, etc. all cost money. PDFs eliminate the printing costs, as well as the costs of shipping materiel product through a distributor.

I think I may be in a position to comment on this, all things considered. PDFs are nice, yes, and they're rapidly forging new and (IMO) better distribution channels, along with reducing costs, but they're not a panacea.

People have a gut feeling on what a product "should" cost and what is fair. Hardcover of Complete Warrior - priced fairly. PDF of Complete Warrior for the same exact price? No way.

And hardcopy is still way, way underpriced. 'People', sadly, are generally ignorant of subjects like economics, inflation and how pricing is affected by them. Compare the cost of books at a store like B&N to how RPGs are priced sometime. The disconnect is...startling.

ndard model oughta be dependent upon media used: PDF priced dependent upon layout (i.e. is it just a distillation of a MS Word document, or is it a tagged, searchable, editable PDF with lots of artwork?), with PoD and various choices for paper weight, binding, etc. being rolled into the final price for the consumer that costs more than the PDF.

Thing is, this is already folded into the cost. That's not something the consumer sees. Likewise with POD. Again, nothing the consumer sees; it's a matter of being managed behind the scenes by the content producer. If you have a spare $40 lying around, run out to RPGNow and pick up their e-Publisher bundle, or perhaps the EPublishing 101 articles by Phil Reed and GMS. Enlightening stuff, by people who make a living from exactly what you're talking about.

 

[Jim Hague]

Rules bloat? Too much crunch for you?

Can't be helped. Your fellow fans want them.

Ayuh, and I believe I acknowledged such. I'm also aware that a lot of the designers at WotC weren't happy when the mandate (based on marketing) came down to emphasize rules over background. But there's no question - rules sell.

Meh. TSR suffered the same problem. Even other companies, too.

I know, you expect WotC to have a much higher standard now that they're part of a corporate family.

Bigger budgets and a (persumably) more consistent production system, yeah, should produce a more consistent product. WotC has a lot of super-talented folks working for 'em, but again...a matter of personal taste and preference.

Rules or Tools? As I said before, their customers want crunch. Only few of us want a balance of crunch and fluff. Which is weird because the customers that want crunch and no fluff because they can come up with their own fluff, are the same customers that want adventure modules.

It's a mystery for the ages, to be sure...

 

[Psion]

Rules bloat? Too much crunch for you?

Can't be helped. Your fellow fans want them.

It can be helped. You don't have to buy supplements.