Is Wraithstrike the wrong level?

[Iku Rex]

There are two cases I can find in the Core rules that could be used as precedent to support this line of argument.

The first is ghosts, who can manifest in an incorporeal state. Incorporeal creatures have Str --; the sample ghost has a Str of 16. Against an ethereal creature, the sample ghost's incorporeal touch attack deals 1d6+3 damage; against a material creature, it only deals 1d6. The Str bonus is inapplicable, since as an incorporeal creature, the ghost has a Str of -- on the material plane. But with his Ghost Touch bastard sword, he deals 1d10+3 regardless of whether he's attacking an ethereal or material opponent. To the material opponent, the sword is considered corporeal; thus, apparently, it includes the Str bonus even though the ghost is incorporeal.

By extrapolation, we might rule that a 'ghostly' weapon would not include the Str bonus, even if the wielder were corporeal.

Where does it say that ghosts get to use their Str with a ghost touch weapon? In order to attack the ghost must manifest and become incorporeal. If so, "t has no Strength score, so its Dexterity modifier applies to both its melee attacks and its ranged attacks." This is not contradicted in the ghost description as far as I can see.

If it does use it's Str the situation is somewhat similar to wraithstrike. "An incorporeal creature’s attacks pass through (ignore) natural armor, armor, and shields, although deflection bonuses and force effects (such as mage armor) work normally against it." Nowhere in the ghost touch ability description does it say this rule doesn't apply for ghost touch weapons. So, this would support applying Str damage and Power Attack with wraithstrike.

If you rule that ghosts don't bypass armor and natural armor with a ghost touch weapon it's no longer a meaningful precedent, since the weapon is 100% material during the attack. The whole point was that wraithstrike makes the weapon "ghostly and nearly transparent".

The second is the Flame Blade spell, which states "Since the blade is immaterial, your Strength modifier does not apply to the damage." This might be considered a precedent that could be applied to other immaterial blades - such as one rendered 'ghostly' by a spell, perhaps.

Blade of pain and fear (SC), ice axe (SC) and mood blade (SC) use the same wording. They're not all immaterial, but all are spell effects. The wraithstrike damage is not from a spell effect.

And surely any precedent here would be this: If a character's Strength modifier does not apply, the spell description will say so.

I think the Wraithstrike spell as written does not prohibit Str bonus to damage; but I think one might make the case that such a ruling is not completely out of left field...

Bah.

 

[Korak]

Where does it say that ghosts get to use their Str with a ghost touch weapon? In order to attack the ghost must manifest and become incorporeal. If so, "t has no Strength score, so its Dexterity modifier applies to both its melee attacks and its ranged attacks." This is not contradicted in the ghost description as far as I can see.

If the ghost is using a ghost touch weapon, he need not manifest to strike. He may stay wholly on the ethereal plane and swing his ghost touch weapon (will the full strength bonus he still possesses) using it to strike non-ethereal targets to whom the blade counts as corporeal.

 

[Iku Rex]

If the ghost is using a ghost touch weapon, he need not manifest to strike. He may stay wholly on the ethereal plane and swing his ghost touch weapon (will the full strength bonus he still possesses) using it to strike non-ethereal targets to whom the blade counts as corporeal.

Nope. You can't affect the material plane from the ethereal plane. The ghost must manifest first. "A manifesting ghost can wield the weapon against corporeal foes." -- ghost touch ability.

 

[Korak]

I stand corrected. Good catch.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Where does it say that ghosts get to use their Str with a ghost touch weapon?

I'm looking at the sample Ghost in the MM.

Its incorporeal touch attack deals 1d6, or 1d6+3 vs an ethereal opponent.

Its ghost touch bastard sword deals a flat 1d10+3; there's no distinction drawn between attacking material or ethereal opponents.

If you rule that ghosts don't bypass armor and natural armor with a ghost touch weapon it's no longer a meaningful precedent, since the weapon is 100% material during the attack. The whole point was that wraithstrike makes the weapon "ghostly and nearly transparent".

A ghost with a non-ghost-touch bastard sword couldn't affect a material opponent at all; it would be wielding an incorporeal weapon against a corporeal creature to no effect.

The Ghost Touch ability allows the weapon to be considered corporeal if that is advantageous, as in this case - but as a corporeal attack, it wouldn't bypass armor or natural armor.

My point was not that this showed a meaningful precedent for a ghostly weapon; it was that it showed a precedent for an attacker and a weapon in differing states of ghostliness. In the case of the manifested incorporeal ghost with the ghost touch weapon, we have a ghostly attacker with a non-ghostly weapon, to which Str bonus to damage applies per the stat block. So we might postulate that a non-ghostly attacker with a ghostly weapon might not get to apply Str bonus to damage.

Blade of pain and fear (SC), ice axe (SC) and mood blade (SC) use the same wording. They're not all immaterial, but all are spell effects. The wraithstrike damage is not from a spell effect.

But Flame Blade doesn't say "You can't apply your Str modifier to damage because it's a spell effect", it says "You can't apply your Str modifier to damage because it's immaterial".

A weapon used with Wraithstrike is not a spell effect, but it's immaterial...

-Hyp.

 

[satori01]

Of course the 'ghostly weapon' part of Wraithstrike is is probably flavor text, else the spell would refer to that attack being an Incorporeal Touch Attack.

This would actually be a good and flavorful fix to Wraithstrike. You could use the spell to hit incorporeal beings. Mage Armor, Shield and the like would still apply, and STR damage could be removed from any damage dealt.

 

[Iku Rex]

I'm looking at the sample Ghost in the MM.

Its incorporeal touch attack deals 1d6, or 1d6+3 vs an ethereal opponent.

Its ghost touch bastard sword deals a flat 1d10+3; there's no distinction drawn between attacking material or ethereal opponents.

There's no need for a distinction. The example ghost can't attack material opponents. It does not have a magic weapon, much less a ghost touch weapon. "A ghost retains all the attacks of the base creature, although those relying on physical contact do not affect creatures that are not ethereal."

A ghost with a non-ghost-touch bastard sword couldn't affect a material opponent at all; it would be wielding an incorporeal weapon against a corporeal creature to no effect.

The Ghost Touch ability allows the weapon to be considered corporeal if that is advantageous, as in this case - but as a corporeal attack, it wouldn't bypass armor or natural armor.

The weapon is considered corporeal. The ghost is not. As written, the ghost's attacks bypass armor when it's incorporeal. (I quoted the rule in my last post.) We could argue about the intent, but even the ghost touch ability states that the weapon is corporeal or not depending on what's "more beneficial to the wielder". One could argue that it's "more beneficial to the wielder" for the weapon to be incorporeal when determining the opponent's AC.

A weapon used with Wraithstrike is not a spell effect, but it's immaterial...

Depends on what is meant by "ghostly". Besides, a brilliant energy weapon is also "immaterial". Do you think the same argument applies to that?

 

[Hypersmurf]

The example ghost can't attack material opponents. It does not have a magic weapon, much less a ghost touch weapon.

Ah, yup - quite right. I think I somehow managed to mix up "A manifested ghost can strike with a ghost touch weapon" into meaning "A manifested ghost has a ghost touch weapon"... or something.

As written, the ghost's attacks bypass armor when it's incorporeal. (I quoted the rule in my last post.) We could argue about the intent, but even the ghost touch ability states that the weapon is corporeal or not depending on what's "more beneficial to the wielder". One could argue that it's "more beneficial to the wielder" for the weapon to be incorporeal when determining the opponent's AC.

Hmm.

I'd have read it that the Ghost Touch weapon (wielded by an incorporeal creature) ignores the 50% chance for a corporeal creature to avoid damage from an incorporeal magic weapon by being considered corporeal; that if it is considered incorporeal, the Ghost Touch quality is effectively not being utilised. If the 50% 'miss chance' is avoided by the Ghost Touch quality, this is occuring because the weapon is being considered advantageously corporeal... which would allow armor bonuses to apply.

Now I'm not sure.

Depends on what is meant by "ghostly".

True, and I said from the beginning that as written, I don't believe Wraithstrike disallows Str bonus

-Hyp.

 

[Bagpuss]

There's no need for a distinction. The example ghost can't attack material opponents.

Not with its sword but it can with its touch attack, hence the distinction there.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Not with its sword but it can with its touch attack, hence the distinction there.

Yeah, but my point was based on a faulty assumption that the stat block showed a Str bonus with the sword against material opponents.

-Hyp.