Is Wraithstrike the wrong level?

[RigaMortus2]

Sorry but the two spells are leagues apart.

Mirror image gives a (rapidly diminishing) miss chance. at best it can save the mage from a few attacks. Also, even a 1st level fighter can have cleave and most DM's rule hitting a mirror image as droping it (this view is supported by the FAQ); once you have great cleave the mirror images are toast. There are plenty of other ways around mirror image; making it a decent but not overpowered spell.

Sure, there are definately ways around Mirror Image. By the same token, there are ways to defend against Wraithstrike, Mirror Image being one of them. Invisibility is another. Staying out of range via Fly is another. Concealment is another. Having a high touch AC is another. Counter-spelling or dispel magic Wraithstrike is another. There are plenty of other ways to defend against Wraithstrike; making it a decent but not overpowered spell. I think all that we have established here is that there is always a way to defend against 2nd level spells.

RigaMortus2, I'm going to ask you the same question I asked Mistwell. Have you seen wraithstrike in mid to high level play? I also thought the spell was fine, but having seen and used it, I've changed my opinion.

Nope. Never seen it in play. At all. Ever. You might say "Then how do you know it's not over powered if you've never seen it in play?". I might say, "It must not be over powered if I have never seen someone pick the spell up and use it in play in the 3 years since CAr has been out."

Listing numbers and stats and percentages to hit, and damage per round is fine and all, but in practice, I don't think it is going to come up all that often. Sure, every once in awhile, a Wraithstrike optimized character is going to shine (just as any other class), other times there will be other factors in play that prevents them from going ballistic

Characters do run out of spells occassionally.
Characters sometimes don't have time to rest to get their spells back.
Characters often face multiple encounters in a day.
Characters are known to roll a nat 1 from time to time.
Characters eventually face things with high touch ACs.
The list goes on...

 

[RigaMortus2]

The enemy closing his eyes makes mirror image useless.

I'd just like to point that out.

I am glad you did... All this shows is there are ways around Mirror Image. Bravo. Look at my post above for some ways to defend against Wraithstrike (one of which is NOT closing your eyes sadly ).

 

[RigaMortus2]

Second, Mirror Image can be countered in a number of ways. Multiple attacks. AoE spells. Dispell magic. True Seeing. Wraithstrike can only be countered by boosting touch AC, or readying a dispel magic.

As I have listed above, there are more ways to defend against Wraithsrike than you think. Or is Flying away and attacking at range suddenly not a viable option? What about grappling? Is that also not a viable option? What about concealment (magical or otherwise)? If you are worried about Wraithstrike, surely negating 50% of the attacks is something worth considering. What about Invisibility? What about Mirror Image?

Why is it that everyone likes to post ways to get around Mirror Image, but are unwilling to accept valid (and often used in-game) defenses against Wraithstrike?

 

[Nail]

Why is it that everyone likes to post ways to get around Mirror Image, but are unwilling to accept valid (and often used in-game) defenses against Wraithstrike?

Question: Is wraithstrike a 2nd level spell?

Answer: Well, the opponent could have Mirror Image up!

???????

 

[wildstarsreach]

As I have listed above, there are more ways to defend against Wraithsrike than you think. Or is Flying away and attacking at range suddenly not a viable option? What about grappling? Is that also not a viable option? What about concealment (magical or otherwise)? If you are worried about Wraithstrike, surely negating 50% of the attacks is something worth considering. What about Invisibility? What about Mirror Image?

Why is it that everyone likes to post ways to get around Mirror Image, but are unwilling to accept valid (and often used in-game) defenses against Wraithstrike?

Point taken but I don't seem to have impressed you with mine. At 20th level if you get a full attack, you can do about 400 hp of damage without counting critical hits. There is a problem here. On another wraithstrike thread, a 12th level character doing about 225+ HP damage a round shows that this again is a problem. Once you get past 8th level this spell becomes problematic with characters optimized to wraithstrikes advantages.

As a 2nd level spell, it's too good. A quickened true strike which affects the next attack (one) is a 5th level spell. Wraithstrike affects all of your attacks in the round cast baring specials. My 10th, 15th and 20th level EK builds show that the problems are the spell. Make the spell non-existant or serious changes in level and what it affects are the solutions.

Discounting this doesn't lead to a solution that a great many people see.

 

[Stalker0]

There's a couple of things to consider with mirror image. Its a great spell, no one is questioning that, but it does have some limitations:

1) Every time the fighter swings and doesn't hit the mage he takes out an image. Now, as said, the mage can just recast the spell. But, that deprives him of casting another spell. Or if he quickens it, well then its really a 6th level spell he is casting. Wraithstrike is a swift spell, the fighter doesn't suffer an action cost from using it.

2) Mirror image is only 1 min/level. That means you have to have some foreknowledge to use it, or again spend a precious action in combat to cast it. Wraithstrike is used when needed, its never wasted.

As for counters to wraithstrike, if the counter is taking a melee monster out of melee range, then the party has already won. I've just effectively lowered the CR of the encounter, and I didn't even have to cast the spell!

I think wraithstrike is a monster monster buff spell, however, as has been mentioned there are situations when its not very useful.

So here's the main two questions for wraithstrike builds:

1) How effective is the build in melee when wraithstrike cannot be used? Aka, in sitations where the spell wouldn't be effective, or you've simply run out of them.

2) How many times can wraithstrike be used per day in these builds? Can you use the spell often in a fair number of combats, or do you have to be stingy and hoard them?


Finally, let's stop looking at this spell from a player's use perspective, and put it in the hands of an npc. Let's used that 12th level build from the other thread. The party's 12th level fighter goes into melee, because that's what he does. The npc counters, and with a pitiful touch AC on the fighter, the npc is virtually guarranteed to hit everytime. He does a good 200 damage to the fighter and kills him outright. No save, no SR, a perfectly normal CR for a 12th level fighter, and he's dead. Doesn't seem right to me.

 

[Mort]

Nope. Never seen it in play. At all. Ever. You might say "Then how do you know it's not over powered if you've never seen it in play?". I might say, "It must not be over powered if I have never seen someone pick the spell up and use it in play in the 3 years since CAr has been out."

Listing numbers and stats and percentages to hit, and damage per round is fine and all, but in practice, I don't think it is going to come up all that often. Sure, every once in awhile, a Wraithstrike optimized character is going to shine (just as any other class), other times there will be other factors in play that prevents them from going ballistic

So you have never seen it in play and the fact that several people have chimed in (including myself) and stated that IN PLAY the spell is seriously overpowered has no bearing? can't really argue with someone who simply refuses to believe something despite evidence to the contrary.

Characters do run out of spells occassionally.

Completely besides the point. By that logic a 1st level spell that does 1,000 points of damage once per month is ok, because, well, you run out of it.

Characters sometimes don't have time to rest to get their spells back.

Again, so what, this is the balancing factor to all spells and has no bearing on whether a spell is overpowered.

Characters often face multiple encounters in a day.

Casters have lots of 2nd level spells per day too. Again totally irrelevant as to balance of any given spell verses other spells.
But if you like, use a 3rd level slot to have extended wraithstrike - all attacks as touch attacks for 2 rounds. You'll have plenty for when you need them.

Characters are known to roll a nat 1 from time to time.

I'll settle for a 95% chance to hit.

Characters eventually face things with high touch ACs.

Wrong, characters occasionally face things with high touch ACs but as a general rule, touch ACs do not scale with CR. Take a good look at the high CR monsters, look at their regular AC then look at their touch AC.

 

[PallidPatience]

The build posted in the accompanying thread has 7 2nd level slots a day, can cast spontaneously, and still has higher level slots.

 

[Deset Gled]

As I have listed above, there are more ways to defend against Wraithsrike than you think. Or is Flying away and attacking at range suddenly not a viable option? What about grappling? Is that also not a viable option? What about concealment (magical or otherwise)? If you are worried about Wraithstrike, surely negating 50% of the attacks is something worth considering. What about Invisibility? What about Mirror Image?

Why is it that everyone likes to post ways to get around Mirror Image, but are unwilling to accept valid (and often used in-game) defenses against Wraithstrike?

The problem is that none of your solutions are specific to Wraithstrike. You are just citing ways to negate melee combat. People are willing to use defences against Wraithstrike, but not when that defence is to never get into melee combat. Now, making a spell only usefull in certain situations is certainly a way to balance it. But limiting it to only being usefull in melee combat is hardly a limitation, as it's what most D+D battles are built around.

Even with your limitations, though, Wraithstrike is still overpowered. Yes, it's still useful in a grapple, because you can still cast it and attack in a grapple. And yes, it's still overpowered against a spell that negates 50% of attacks, because that only lowers the expected damage ouptut by 50% (180 damage to 90 damage) and is still a better option than other 2nd level spells that aid melee combat.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Surely you can close and open your eyes as a free action, though, right? If not, that's just insane.

Well, a beholder can't do it! What makes you think you're better than a creature that is basically all eye?