Is Wraithstrike the wrong level?

[Mistwell]

Trying to Evaluate wraithstrike without involving other spells that come from *the same source as wraithstrike* is setting a pretty ridiculous requirement, I think.

Wraithstrike comes from Complete Arcane. I said any of the complete books is fine, since most games seem to use those books + core. What is the problem? People have been complaining that wraithstrike has been broken since the day it was first published. Are you now saying it only became a problem with the introduction of the Spell Compendium, and that if people do not play with that book, then it's no longer a problem spell?

 

[IanB]

Wraithstrike comes from Complete Arcane. I said any of the complete books is fine, since most games seem to use those books + core. What is the problem? People have been complaining that wraithstrike has been broken since the day it was first published. Are you now saying it only became a problem with the introduction of the Spell Compendium, and that if people do not play with that book, then it's no longer a problem spell?

What I am saying is you can't really evaluate spells in D&D in a vacuum or by setting what is a frankly arbitrary limit like that. Most of the groups I'm personally familiar with are more likely to allow the SC than the Complete series, since the content in the Spell Compendium has been revised for better balance (in theory.) Your experience is apparently different, and that just underlines why when we're discussing these things as a group it doesn't help to try and narrow things down like that.

Given that WotC themselves are supporting non-core material in all their books now, I think we have to take the same approach when we're evaluating their material; their intent appears to be that it will *all* work together, after all.

 

[Votan]

Sorry, when I said specific, I meant give me a specific actual build. You know, standard array stats, average hit points, standard equipment for that level, saves, average attack bonus and damage per round in melee, etc...

But already I can tell from what you posted that the character in question is weak relative to the rest of the party. Looks to be around the equivalent of a bard. I know that character gets more powerful at higher levels, but I thought we were discussing how wraithstrike would be overpowered. Sure doesn't look more powerful than what you could do as a straight blaster wizard or straight chain-tripper fighter at that level (10th).

Sorry. I'll actually need a bit of time to knit one together but I think your general comments are correct; at 10th level this build is just starting to come together. It is hard to be sure of balance at 18th level as that Fighter/Mage could also be a pure class cleric with the Death Domain plus Domain spontaneity and spamming death spells.

One thing to be careful about (and balance on this point is slippery) is when does a feat stop making a build viable and start making it overpowered. To keep up with a power attack monster barbarian with good spellcaster support, the 10th level Fighter/Mage almost has to be using Wraithstrike and Arcane Strike.

The more that I think about it, the nastiest combination I can thionk up for 10th level is actually the Battlesorcerer but here the spell is making up for the brutal weakness of the class (which is a pity as I like Battlesorcerers alot).

My biggest concern was mostly migration of the spell to a cleric (who then persists it with divine matamagic) or what would happen if it snuck into the list of a Ranger/Paladin/Duskblade.

 

[Mort]

My point is that when you actually get into real numbers, you find it isn't nearly as good as it seems at first blush. If you are arguing that the spell is overpowered with "almost anything", then it should be REALLY easy to demonstrate it, shouldn't it?

Just show me how it actually functions in an overpowered manner with an actual build at, say, 8th level using the standard array of stats and equippment.

As I've said a few times 8th level is not a big problem, the spell is good but not excessive at that level - it just gets better later.

The build I originally posted was a 10th level build. To make it "core compliant" simply add one level of wizard and use eldritch knight instead of knight phantom (since we're allowing complete books use 1 level of spellsword) - so ftr 1/wiz 6/spellsword 1/EK 2. Now as I've stated repeatedly by 10th level the build only starts to get big - really it gets big by 14th level (3 attacks) - but let's look at a 10th level example:

fighter/mage (18 STR with +2 greatsword: hasted and with blink up (these are spells any fighter mage will want up if he can during the fight regardless of wraithstrike):

fighter mage uses wraithstrike and arcane strikes a 4th level spell:
His to hit +19/+19/+14 full power attack to hit +12/+12/+7
Each attack does 2d6 +6 +2 +14 +4d4 (at 10th level this is higher with each level)

Going against AC 10: (the vast majority of monsters and opponents at this level since no dex applies to AC in addition to it being a touch attack)
Assuming full attack: avg damage is 37
1st 2 attacks 95% to hit so damage (not counting criticals which can be a significant factor): 74
3rd attack: 33
total damage: 107
Now that’s a 10th level example where it’s very good but not outrageous.

lets upgrade to a 14th level example (20 STR with +4 greatsword, hasted and blink up):
to hit +25/+25/+20/+15 full power attack to hit +14/+14/+9/+4

against AC 10:
1st 2 attacks: 47.5 avg each – 95 total
3rd attack 47.5 average
4th attack :35 average
total: 177

against AC 15 (very few opponents will have this high a touch AC with no Dex mod)
1st 2 attacks: 47.5 each – 95 total
3rd attack : 35
4th attack: 22
total: 152 (against one of the higher likely touch AC’s barring special circumstances)

can’t 100% guarantee the math but it’s close. (edited for revised figures)

 

[Iku Rex]

I gave my reasons why. You asked me what sources I think are fair. Now you are arguing about it? Why ask if you had no interest in the answer?

Let me get this straight. I reply commenting on your answer and explain why I think it's unreasonable. To you this is "showing no interest in the answer"?

No it doesn't I am aiming for the typical game. From my experience, most games have core and the complete books, and not a whole lot else. So that is what I aimed for. You want to argue something is typical, make the argument. But "anything I can think of" isn't typical, and I think my default was fair. What is so unfair about it?

Spell Compendium is the latest official source for wraithstrike. (BTW, it first appeared in Complete Adventurer, not Arcane.) The Spell Compendium has errata for many of the spells in the Complete books. (If you're using the Spel Compendium you're not playing with the "official" WotC versions of the spells from the Complete books.) It's the book I refer to whenever I mention the spell.

And what is this "experience" based on? The Complete books have no special status in my gaming group and in my experience with "help me build a character" threads on this board, there are a lot of groups out there that allow a wide range of supplements.

I didn't say it's overpowered. I said lets discuss it's power level for a typical game. ANYTHING can be overpowered when twinked to perfection. But lets focus on whether the typical DM should ban this spell in a common game.

If you want me to admit that there are scenarios where wraithstrike is overpowered, I long ago granted that fact. But there are scenarios where magic missle is overpowered, and I don't hear you clamoring for that spell to be banned. So lets just focus on the most useful thing - typical games.

The statement you replied to didn't "say it was overpowered" either. It said: "Wraithstrike is overpowered if you allow the Spell Compendium, supplements from a published campaign setting, or any other supplements other than the Complete books." You refuse to agree to that, and at the same time you insist on disregarding all of the above supplements when discussing balance. I can't think of any good reason why.

But fine. You're now demanding a detailed character with carefully calculated average damage outputs. You've made it clear that you stand ready to dismiss any character as ineffective without, or even with, wraithstrike. I can play that game. I'll compare and post the damage output with and without wraithstrike for a few builds. That should give us some numbers, and then we can try to decide if it's an appropriate damage addition from a swift action 2nd level spell. Since you apparently don't think melee mages were playable before wraithstrike, I'll also include some more details, like combat AC, hit points and saves.

(Average damage calculations can be a lot of work. I lost my own average damage spreadsheet, so I'm hoping to find a new one. There may be a delay.)

 

[Deset Gled]

You know...the stuff that shows it's overpowered.

How about comparing it to anther spell of equal level? Just because a particular build might not be completely over the top doesn't mean a spell is balanced.

Bull's Strength is 2nd level, and grants +2 to attack and damage for 1 min/level, and takes a standard action to cast. By comparison, Wraithstrike is 2nd level, nets a bonus to attack that is completely open ended, but would average around 8 IME (less at low levels, more at high), lasts for 1 round, and takes a swift action to cast.

I don't know about you, but just about every caster I've ever seen in action would much rather have the ability to cast as a swift action than a standard one. The facts that the to-hit bonus is better (and can be converted to damage with PA), scales as you fight tougher opponents, and doesn't have issues with stacking is all just icing on the cake. The only downside is the short duration, and that's not enough of a limitation when the spell can be cast as a swift action.

 

[Nifft]

I mean, you guys SAID you saw it used several times in games where it was broken, right? So just post that build. What is so hard about that?

1/ I've never seen it used in a game.

2/ The broken builds involve sources outside of Core + Complete.

3/ I've tried to give you the flavor of a broken build (the Thri-Kreen Combat Expertise Arcane Trickster flank-o-matic), but for true brokenness, you'd have to add some Aberrant feats from Lords of Madness and some grafts from Fiend Folio.

4/ The more outside sources, the more broken wraithstrike appears.

5/ A concrete suggestion: allow wraithstrike to apply to any one weapon you wield (or natural attack you possess) for one round. That keeps it useful for the greatsword power-attack Eldritch Knight, but kills every abuse I can think of.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Mort]

1/ I've never seen it used in a game.

2/ The broken builds involve sources outside of Core + Complete.

3/ I've tried to give you the flavor of a broken build (the Thri-Kreen Combat Expertise Arcane Trickster flank-o-matic), but for true brokenness, you'd have to add some Aberrant feats from Lords of Madness and some grafts from Fiend Folio.

4/ The more outside sources, the more broken wraithstrike appears.

5/ A concrete suggestion: allow wraithstrike to apply to any one weapon you wield (or natural attack you possess) for one round. That keeps it useful for the greatsword power-attack Eldritch Knight, but kills every abuse I can think of.

Cheers, -- N

One thing that should be taken into account, I think, is that the bar for a core build (or one using only core and complete books) and the bar for a non core build (or one using 3rd party stuff, campaign specific stuff etc.)must be different. It's pretty much a given that the non-core build will be more powerful than a core build. So if you limit the sources you must recognise that what is excessive (or broken if you prefer) has a different definition.

I think the 152-177 HP in one round (from my above example) is excessive for a core or core+complete build. Once you start allowing other stuff, it may not be.

 

[wildstarsreach]

Response (Brandon) 01/15/2007 04:58 PM
Hello James,

Unfortunately the rules are silent on this particular issue. It will fall to the DM to adjudicate whether or not strength is applicable!

Good Luck and Game On!

The above is the response to my question.

Customer (James Webster) 01/14/2007 01:04 PM
Upon reading the text of the spell in the Complete Adventurer, I am getting the feeling the text would imply that strength based damage or power attack damage would not be applicable. I doesn't explicitely say either way but 'your melee weapons or natural weapons become ghostly and nearly transparent for a brief time.' It would be hard in my opinion utilize strength based damage.

 

[wildstarsreach]

Here's the Specific build. I didn't add in if you had a bard but at this level which could add another 4pts of damage per strike. Also, the character only has 5 things that are outside Core and has less than the 760k in wealth that a character of this level would have.

20th lvl, 20th level caster (17th level spellcaster)
Male Human XYZ
XP 190000+, 2nd level Fighter, 7th level Wizard, 1st level Spellsword, 10th level Eldritch Knight
Align CG Race Human
Init +6 Senses Spot +2 Listen +2
Languages Common, Draconic, Orcish, Elvish
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AC 32 Touch 12 Flat-footed 30
HP 138
Fort +21 Ref +12 Will +14
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee 2 Handed Sword (+30/+25/+20/+15 to hit, 2d6+13+1d6, Crit 19-20 x2)
Rngd Longbow (+10 to hit, Range 110/220/330/440/550, 1d8+2, Crit 20 x3)
BA +16/+11/+6/+1 Grppl +23
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DC 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th
19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27
Bonus Spells 2x 1st, 2x 2nd, 2x 3rd, 2x 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th
0th level spells
All Cantrips
1ST level spells
Shocking Grasp, Shield, Shocking Grasp, Chill Touch, Magic Missile, Enlarge Person, Color Spray
2nd Level Spells
Wraithstrike, Bull’s Strength, Scorching Ray, Mirror Image
3rd Level Spells
Haste, Water Breathing, Displacement, Vampiric Touch
4th Level Spells
Stoneskin, Dimension Door, Fire Shield, Confusion, Improved Invisibility
5th Level Spells
Feeblemind, Teleport, Baleful Polymorph, Overland Flight
6th Level Spells
Heroism, Disintegrate, Repulsion, Flesh to Stone
7th Level Spells
Banishment, Spell Turning, Finger of Death, Delayed Blast Fireball
8th Level Spells
Polar Ray, Temporal Stasis, Moment of Prescience, Maze
9th Level Spells
Time Stop, Shapechange
Spells Memorized, All spells cast at 20th level
0th – (4) Read Magic, Detect Magic x2, Ray of Frost
1st – (6) Shield, Enlarge Person, Magic Missile x2, Shocking Grasp x2
2nd – (6) Mirror Image, Wraithstrike x3, Bull’s Strength, Scorching Ray
3rd – (6) Displacement x2, Haste, Vampiric Touch x2, Fireball
4th – (5) Stoneskin, Dimension Door, Fire Shield, Confusion, Improved Invisibility
5th – (5) Baleful Polymorph x2, Feeblemind x2, Teleport
6th – (5) Heroism, Disintegrate, Repulsion, Flesh to Stone x2
7th – (4) Spell Turning, Finger of Death x2, Delayed Blast Fireball
8th – (3) Maze x2, Polar Ray
9th – (1) Time Stop
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Abilities Str 20 (26), Dex 14, Con 14, Int 18 (24), Wis 9, Chr 8 (25 pt buy)
Special Qualities Get +1 Skill point per level and +4 SK Pts 1st level, Bonus Feat, -10% to arcane spell failure in armor
Action Points 10
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Feats Extend (1), Empower (1), Scribe Scroll (1), Summon Familiar (1), Lt/Md/Hvy Armor proficiency (2), Simple/Martial Weapons (2), Weapon Focus Two Hand-handed sword (2), Power Attack (3), Improved Familiar (3), Practiced Spellcaster (6), Sudden Maximize (7), Arcane Strike (9), Improved Initiative (9), Improved Critical Greatsword (12), Power Critical Greatsword (15),
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Skills (110/10) Per player use with normal for wizards
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Possessions Belt of Fire Giant Str +6 (36000), Elven Chainmail +5 (29150), +6 Headband of Intellect (36000), Tome of Clear Thought +3 (82500), Amulet of Natural Armor +5 (25000), Cloak of Resistance +5 (25000), Manual of Gainful Exercise +2 (55000), Ring of protection +5 (25000), Shocking Burst Greatsword +5 of Speed (200000), MW Composite Longbow Str +2, quiverw/20 arrows, 2900 GP for other supplies
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