Is Wraithstrike the wrong level?

[Mistwell]

I think two's list is a good start on agreeing on some facts about wraithstrike.

What will it take for you to accept a build as evidence that wraithstrike is overpowered?

Can it use standard PHB spells like alter self or polymorph? Can it use rules from the Complete books? Spells from the Spell Compendium? Rules from other WotC books? (Which?) Can it be higher than 8th level?

If your answer to any of the above questions is "no", can we then make some general rules based on that?

I.e. "Wraithstrike is overpowered if the DM allows the players to use spells from the Player's Handbook" or "Wraithstrike is overpowered if you have higher than 8th level characters".

I think using Alter Self or Polymorph is fine. However, I do not think using them in a manner which is barred by the current rules, or which goes against the vast majority of DMs opinions as represented in the many heated debates on this board, is not a good way to analyze this spell.

For example, the current rules make your magic items meld into your body for these spells. That should be how it is evaluated.

In addition, threads on alter self are very heated in respect to what you can change into, and whether players should be allowed to flip through all the monster source books and make a list from that to change into, or whether their character has to have encountered the creature before or whether the creature has to be a common one. I think it's fair to default the way most DMs seem to allow it, which means no obscure twinked out monster that just happens to have the highest natural armor in the book (like Tren, from Savage Species and a web update, which have a +8) or Asabi for burrowing and high base speed (Movement: 50’ Ground; 20’ Burrow, from Monsters of Faerun). Just your run of the mill normal MMI creatures that characters typically encounter by the level they are casting at.

I think core + complete books is fine. I think spell compendium and campaign books and some of the more obscure specialty books isn't. Particularly with spell compendium, that stuff is taken on a case by case basis by most DMs, and shouldn't be part of a discussion of what is typical and common.

The gist of my point is we should aim for your typical character and game, and not your specialty character or game. If the point you guys are trying to make is that wraithstrike is EASY to abuse (and that does seem to be the point), then you should be using sources, and interpretations of rules, that are typical and common.

 

[Mort]

I think using Alter Self or Polymorph is fine. However, I do not think using them in a manner which is barred by the current rules, or which goes against the vast majority of DMs opinions as represented in the many heated debates on this board, is not a good way to analyze this spell.

For example, the current rules make your magic items meld into your body for these spells. That should be how it is evaluated.

In addition, threads on alter self are very heated in respect to what you can change into, and whether players should be allowed to flip through all the monster source books and make a list from that to change into, or whether their character has to have encountered the creature before or whether the creature has to be a common one. I think it's fair to default the way most DMs seem to allow it, which means no obscure twinked out monster that just happens to have the highest natural armor in the book (like Tren, from Savage Species and a web update, which have a +8) or Asabi for burrowing and high base speed (Movement: 50’ Ground; 20’ Burrow, from Monsters of Faerun). Just your run of the mill normal MMI creatures that characters typically encounter by the level they are casting at.

I think core + complete books is fine. I think spell compendium and campaign books and some of the more obscure specialty books isn't. Particularly with spell compendium, that stuff is taken on a case by case basis by most DMs, and shouldn't be part of a discussion of what is typical and common.

The gist of my point is we should aim for your typical character and game, and not your specialty character or game. If the point you guys are trying to make is that wraithstrike is EASY to abuse (and that does seem to be the point), then you should be using sources, and interpretations of rules, that are typical and common.

Simple enough:

Wraithstrike is easy to abuse with the core EK and the complete books (which if you're using wraithstrike you have). All you need is an eldrich knight of decent level and power attack. For gravy you need the spells blink and or improved invisibility (available easily to an EK of 9th level which is when the build gets decent). For big extra gravy and to truly abuse the combo you need arcane strike (complete warrior) and available to the EK by 9th level.

 

[Iku Rex]

For example, the current rules make your magic items meld into your body for these spells.

No they don't. Those rules only apply to the new polymorph subschool spells. Polymorph has not changed.

(like Tren, from Savage Species and a web update, which have a +8)

Tren are from Serpent Kingdoms. Crucians (MinH and Sandstorm) also have +8 armor. But troglodytes work just fine with their +6.

I think core + complete books is fine. I think spell compendium and campaign books and some of the more obscure specialty books isn't.
Particularly with spell compendium, that stuff is taken on a case by case basis by most DMs, and shouldn't be part of a discussion of what is typical and common.

Spell Compendium is the latest official source for wraithstrike. It has errata for many of the spells in the Complete books. It's the book I refer to whenever I mention the spell. And yet it doesn't "count" in a discussion about wraithstrike. That does not make sense.

And it seem rather convenient to dismiss the majority of supplements when discussing a spell from a supplement book. Especially since a major objection to it in this thread is the way it interacts with other spells, feats and abilities.

The gist of my point is we should aim for your typical character and game, and not your specialty character or game. If the point you guys are trying to make is that wraithstrike is EASY to abuse (and that does seem to be the point), then you should be using sources, and interpretations of rules, that are typical and common.

Ok, so now we've established an agreed upon "fact". (?)

"Wraithstrike is overpowered if you allow the Spell Compendium, supplements from a published campaign setting, or any other supplements other than the Complete books."

Good. It's a start.

 

[wildstarsreach]

Below is something that I have submitted to customer service for a clarification. I'm now getting the impression that some of the horrible abuses may not have been intented.



Upon reading the text of the spell in the Complete Adventurer, I am getting the feeling the text would imply that strength based damage or power attack damage would not be applicable. I doesn't explicitely say either way but 'your melee weapons or natural weapons become ghostly and nearly transparent for a brief time.' It would be hard in my opinion utilize strength based damage.

 

[Mistwell]

Simple enough:

Wraithstrike is easy to abuse with the core EK and the complete books (which if you're using wraithstrike you have). All you need is an eldrich knight of decent level and power attack. For gravy you need the spells blink and or improved invisibility (available easily to an EK of 9th level which is when the build gets decent). For big extra gravy and to truly abuse the combo you need arcane strike (complete warrior) and available to the EK by 9th level.

So give me a quick specific build.

 

[Mistwell]

No they don't. Those rules only apply to the new polymorph subschool spells. Polymorph has not changed.
Tren are from Serpent Kingdoms. Crucians (MinH and Sandstorm) also have +8 armor. But troglodytes work just fine with their +6.

If you are of a level to have commonly fought a torglodyte, then fine.

Spell Compendium is the latest official source for wraithstrike. It has errata for many of the spells in the Complete books. It's the book I refer to whenever I mention the spell. And yet it doesn't "count" in a discussion about wraithstrike. That does not make sense.

I gave my reasons why. You asked me what sources I think are fair. Now you are arguing about it? Why ask if you had no interest in the answer?

And it seem rather convenient to dismiss the majority of supplements when discussing a spell from a supplement book.

No it doesn't I am aiming for the typical game. From my experience, most games have core and the complete books, and not a whole lot else. So that is what I aimed for. You want to argue something is typical, make the argument. But "anything I can think of" isn't typical, and I think my default was fair. What is so unfair about it?

Especially since a major objection to it in this thread is the way it interacts with other spells, feats and abilities.
Ok, so now we've established an agreed upon "fact". (?)

"Wraithstrike is overpowered if you allow the Spell Compendium, supplements from a published campaign setting, or any other supplements other than the Complete books."

Good. It's a start.

I didn't say it's overpowered. I said lets discuss it's power level for a typical game. ANYTHING can be overpowered when twinked to perfection. But lets focus on whether the typical DM should ban this spell in a common game.

If you want me to admit that there are scenarios where wraithstrike is overpowered, I long ago granted that fact. But there are scenarios where magic missle is overpowered, and I don't hear you clamoring for that spell to be banned. So lets just focus on the most useful thing - typical games.

 

[Votan]

If you are of a level to have commonly fought a torglodyte, then fine.

You need to be 1st level?? It is, after all, a CR 1 creature and, by the time you can cast the spell it seems unlikely that CR is the limiting factor in meeting these creatures. After all, you have to be at least level 3 to cast the spell as a wizard (it is a level 2 spell); you have to be level 4 if you are either a sorcerer or a bard.

 

[Votan]

So give me a quick specific build.

Human Fighter 1/Wizard 6/Eldritch Knight 3

Casts 4th level spells (therefore improved Invisibility). Gets Wraithstrike at level 4 and is able to be effective in melee at that level using the spell. Reach is essential to not being hit as often as you hit others. It might be worth moving expertise up the list (even above power attack) if you have trouble with people hitting you too often.

Feats
1(H): Exotic Weapon Proficency (Spiked Chain) [PHB]
1(F): Power Attack [PHB]
1: Cleave [PHB]
3: Practiced Caster [CA or CD]
6: Combat Expertise [PHB]
7(EK): Improved Trip [PHB]
9: Arcane Strike [CW]


Finish is material dependent. If you have access to Complete Mage the obvious one is:

Human Fighter 1/Wizard 6/Eldritch Knight 1-3/Abjurant Champion 1-5/Eldritch Knight 4-8

Replace Practiced Caster with Combat Casting and move the Practiced Caster later in the build.

Final Character has 18th level wizard casting and BAB +17.

 

[Nifft]

Here's another:

Rogue 3 / Wizard 5 / Arcane Trickster 2

Wizard polymorphs into a lion.

If he can flank a foe and can charge, attack with claw/claw/bite + rake/rake, for five attacks. Each attack deals +3d6 Sneak Attack damage.

(I picked lion for its pounce ability. A girallon is better for stand-up flank-n-spank: 4x claw + bite. Both are under 7 hd.)

In this case, it's not Power Attack that I'd max out, it's Combat Expertise. He'll have a BAB of exactly +5, so that works out nicely, and boosts his AC while not particularly impacting his ability to strike his foe. (I'd also take Extend Spell and fill some 3rd level slots with Extended wraithstrikes.)

Cheers, -- N

 

[brehobit]

Here's another:

Rogue 3 / Wizard 5 / Arcane Trickster 2

Wizard polymorphs into a lion.

If he can flank a foe and can charge, attack with claw/claw/bite + rake/rake, for five attacks. Each attack deals +3d6 Sneak Attack damage.

(I picked lion for its pounce ability. A girallon is better for stand-up flank-n-spank: 4x claw + bite. Both are under 7 hd.)

In this case, it's not Power Attack that I'd max out, it's Combat Expertise. He'll have a BAB of exactly +5, so that works out nicely, and boosts his AC while not particularly impacting his ability to strike his foe. (I'd also take Extend Spell and fill some 3rd level slots with Extended wraithstrikes.)

Cheers, -- N

Dumb question,
How exactly is the lion casting a spell? I don't have wraithstrike in front of me, but it must have either verbal, somatic, and/or material components, none of which can be managed as a lion AFAIK.

Mark