Is Wraithstrike the wrong level?

[two]

This is absurd

Nope, just as 3.0 Haste isn't good for level 2. Level 3, sure...

[...]

There are a lot of powerful feat/spell/class combos. Do you want to list them all? Do you want to "ban" them all?

Two really strange comments here.

Point 1: Haste 3.0 WAS broken. How do we know? They nerfed it like crazy in 3.5. The designers admit it was broken - everyone on the design staff eventually agreed on this point. What more evidence do you need? Haste was always cast, its benefits were too high, the limitations nonexistent. Yes, some people think it was fine... (and still do), but some people also think Martians work at MacDonald's. Haste 3.0 is unequivocal evidence that sometimes WOTC gets things very wrong...this is understandable. D&D is a huge game. They were wrong, they fixed it. What I find strange is that you still can't even see why 3.0 haste might have been a problem (even at 3rd level!). This, for me, makes your comments about another possibly overpowered spell (Wraithstrike)... rather less convincing. Or, remove the "rather."

Point 2: Do I want to list all the powerful combos and ban them? As a rhetorical flourish... well, we have seen that sort of question before. Obviously not. I just ban Wraithstrike and that (coincidentally?) takes care of a large percentage of the most easy-to-achieve balance problems.

 

[wildstarsreach]

May I ask what levels?

It just seems to me that by the time you can get real use out of WS you have to be kinda high level anyway (level 12+) and at that point, aren't characters supposed to be good at what they do?

If you were doing 200 points of damage (or whatever the figure was) at a much earlier level, I can see it as being a problem. And even then, it is probably a combination of things that is causing the problem.

20th level. This is where it is truely broken.
Let's look at differences of level and damage

10th level
BA +7/+2, Str+Magic+Misc=+6+1d6, +PA +7/+14 and Arcane Strike +4/hit +4d4 damage
+10/+5 to hit, damage 33 ave + weapon damage, about 40 points for each strike that is likely to hit based 12 to 15 touch AC.

15th level
BA +12/+7/+2, Str+Magic+Misc=+9+3d6, +PA +12/+24 and arcane Strike +6/+6d4
+15/+10/+5 to hit, damage ave about 65 points a hit.

Even at 10th level this starts to become problematic. Only at less than 8th level does this not become problematic.

The problem is the spell. Eliminate or vastly change the spell and everything else that the Gish's are are not out of balance to any great degree. This when used in combination is the problem.

 

[Votan]

IIRC, there is errata on Divine Metamagic that only allows you to apply the feat to Divine spells. I might be wrong, and this could be a house rule I am thinking of. Anyway...

A 6th level Mage (same level as your 6th level divine metamagicking cleric) can easily dispel it. Heck, even if he doesn't know the spell is active, tossing out a Targetted Dispel to debuff enemies is not a new concept (our group does it all the time).

If the cleric is getting the spell via "Anyspell" in the Spell Domain then it appears to qualify as a divine spell (just like any other domain spell). It's true that a oppenent with dispel magic can use an action to debuff. But many of the opponents in the average module do not have this option. I have been playing Dungeon Crawl Classics and they are not filled with counters to this.

 

[Votan]

Do I want to list all the powerful combos and ban them? As a rhetorical flourish... well, we have seen that sort of question before. Obviously not. I just ban Wraithstrike and that (coincidentally?) takes care of a large percentage of the most easy-to-achieve balance problems.

In some ways Wraithstrike is an enabling spell rather than being broken in and of itself. It is like things that allow massive boosts to caster level or allow you to break the metamagic meta-cap. They are fine in most cases but can be the core of almost unlimited abuse.

For example, Divine Metamagic is almost impossible to abuse if the cleric has to be capable of casting a spell of the level of the metamagiced spell. It is only very good with quicken and only gets insane with things like persistent or twin. It is downright mediocre with silent or still.

But it is often banned or rewritten to avoid these "corner cases" because it just combines too well with too many things; players cna create overpowered combinations by mistake just because of the number of potential game interactions.

 

[Mistwell]

It's effective a good ways below 10th level. About 4th level (when the standard fighter/wizard would cast the spell) is when it would become useful. Granted, it's not quite as broken at those levels, and its useful in a different way (it's more of a big bonus to attack than an autohit), but it's still pretty darn good at those levels.

It's a second level spell. So you need to be a third level wizard. Which means you have only one level of fighter, low hit points, low base attack bonus, no ability to cast in armor, and a MAD problem. I really don't see that as being useful. At that level, there are far better spells than Wraitstrike to be memorizing with those few precious second level spell slots.

Naw, like most people have mentioned in this thread, really 9th level is the earliest this even because a decent option, and really it's 10th level that it starts to get rolling. Which is around the same level that MOST focused tactics start to get rolling, if not a tad bit late.

I know my character (who was using this newfangled prestige class called Eldritch Knight from that rare and relatively new book, the DMG)

There is really no need to for the snarkiness. I was specifically responding to people who had mentioned a prestige class from Complete Mage (because it does not have the loss of a spellcasting level, like Eldritch Knight does). Abjurant Champion I think it was called? Anyway, you knew quite well that I was not calling the Eldritch Knight an obscure prestige class from an obscure new book.

 

[Mistwell]

It seems like you're moving the goalposts a bit here. It was asked if Wraithstrike was broken in actual play--examples were provided, then you bought in the new criteria of a "long test".

Against enemies with a touch AC of 18 (above average), my eldritch knight could power attack for an extra 20 damage and still hit on a 2+. How many encounters would have been needed to prove that was broken?

Yes, there are defences against being hit, which affect all melee-fighting characters--but when the Wraithstriker does hit, they'll be doing vastly more damage. And a fighter-caster is more likely to have ways past those defenses than a straight battler, I might add.

I think any tactic should be tested for at least a dozen encounters, over a few levels and against different types of opponents, before it's declared "broken and banned". Spells (and most abilities for that matter) are usually more useful in some situations than in others, and I think it's fair to give them a broad test rather than a narrow one.

 

[Mistwell]

OK "WS is fine" people, what is it?

It's not WS, it is really polymorph that is the problem.

It's not WS, it is Eldritch K builds that are the problem.

It's not WS, it is Arcane Strike that is the problem.

It's not WS, it is Alter Self/Power Attack/Insert common Feat or class here...

Every example: it's not WS, it is X combined with WS.

Guess what all these have in common?

Yesterday, nobody cared if the sorcerer turned into a troll; yeah, he is now melee capable, but... on par with a same-level fighter, maybe. Today, we care. Why? hmmmm.....

{throw out persistent WS; that is silly.}

I think that is a mischaracterization of what's been said here. Virtually all of the builds presented had multiple choices from those you listed, sometimes all of them at the same time plus some. In addition, many of those claims were never made to begin with. For example, who said Eldritch K builds in and of themselves are the problem?

 

[Iku Rex]

I think that is a mischaracterization of what's been said here. Virtually all of the builds presented had multiple choices from those you listed, sometimes all of them at the same time plus some.

I think two's list is a good start on agreeing on some facts about wraithstrike.

What will it take for you to accept a build as evidence that wraithstrike is overpowered?

Can it use standard PHB spells like alter self or polymorph? Can it use rules from the Complete books? Spells from the Spell Compendium? Rules from other WotC books? (Which?) Can it be higher than 8th level?

If your answer to any of the above questions is "no", can we then make some general rules based on that?

I.e. "Wraithstrike is overpowered if the DM allows the players to use spells from the Player's Handbook" or "Wraithstrike is overpowered if you have higher than 8th level characters".

 

[two]

no time but

I don't have time to create them right now (at all!), but here are some simple ideas for nasty WraithStrike (WS) builds. All are obvious and simple.

"I hit you, you miss me": Combine oversized greatsword w/reach w/maximum combat expertise for a lot of auto-hit damage and your BAB in bonus to AC.

"Charge it!": maximize a basic charger, either mounted or not. Should use various feats to increase Power Attack ratio when charging, or lance when mounted. WS almost auto-insures a hit even with power attack heavily used; stir in cleave for fun.

"Death by a thousand cuts": 1 level of monk/2 weapons/flurry/WS. Idea is you maximize your number of attacks, but don't use power attack that much if at all; simply use WS to let ALL the attacks hit. Not overwhelming, but probably fun. Stir in Dervish later for overwhelming.

"PolySlam": Polymorph into a melee-capable form and just attack with WS.

The charging one I see immediately as being the most easy to abuse as well as the most powerful (beyond the typical gish full attack full power attack builds). Ride-by, etc.

 

[Votan]

It's a second level spell. So you need to be a third level wizard. Which means you have only one level of fighter, low hit points, low base attack bonus, no ability to cast in armor, and a MAD problem. I really don't see that as being useful. At that level, there are far better spells than Wraitstrike to be memorizing with those few precious second level spell slots.

My final theory on Wraithstrike is that it is bad not because it is specifically broken but it is one of those things that can be mixed with other material way too easily. For example, the character above could be a Human Paragon 1/Wizard 1/Human Paragon 2-3. That would appear to do the trick quite nicely (and all for a single level lost as a caster). Curiously, this build can enter Abjurant Champion once they get a BAB of +5.