Is Wraithstrike the wrong level?

[two]

Are we comparing 3.0 Haste to Wraithstrike now? There is a problem with comparing the two. A big difference between them IMHO, which I will attempt to demonstrate...

If a player came to me as you proposed, I would ask one of two questions:

1) Does your 3.0 Haste have a duration of 1 round? If it's longer than that, then my answer is "No, I see it as broken". --- Not to mention (and correct me if I am remembering wrong), 3.0 Haste not just affected you, but could affect your party members too. --- Or is this 3.5 Haste? Eh...
2) Does your Wraithstrike spell have a duration of more than 1 round? If the answer is "Yes" I would say "No, it seems broken to me". If the answer is "No, just works for 1 round" then I would say, "Sure, why not".

This makes no sense to me. Finger of Death has a duration of 1 round (you can't cast it 10 times over 10 rounds for free); presto it's ok for 2nd level?

The question is not how long, but what is done during the spells duration. For WS, that is a full attack at max power attack plus possibly other fun things... is 1 round enough? I say yes due to the effect. Really duration is a red herring. A really powerful effect that only requires 1 round is not limited by only lasting... 1 round.

 

[wildstarsreach]

Are we comparing 3.0 Haste to Wraithstrike now? There is a problem with comparing the two. A big difference between them IMHO, which I will attempt to demonstrate...

If a player came to me as you proposed, I would ask one of two questions:

1) Does your 3.0 Haste have a duration of 1 round? If it's longer than that, then my answer is "No, I see it as broken". --- Not to mention (and correct me if I am remembering wrong), 3.0 Haste not just affected you, but could affect your party members too. --- Or is this 3.5 Haste? Eh...
2) Does your Wraithstrike spell have a duration of more than 1 round? If the answer is "Yes" I would say "No, it seems broken to me". If the answer is "No, just works for 1 round" then I would say, "Sure, why not".

Where as I agree with Mr. Myagi, if you are not there, then you cannot defeat your foe. Mr. Myagi is almost a LG pacifist.

Let's get back to the question at hand that I started. Is wraithstrike the wrong level.

Compared to true strike, the very next attack at +20 to hit. Standard action.

Wraithstrike, good for all attacks that round and a swift action.

At low level or one single attack, this spell is not a problem. If wraithstrike was for the next attack and 3rd level, this may be more in line with camparable power of the spells.

Now as written, if it were for 2 attacks, then it should be a 5th level spell, 3 attacks a 7th level spell and for a full set of attacks a 9th level spell. To the degree that damage can be done, the use of this spell is well worth a 9th level spell.

In my post 70, I showed where you could do about 400 points of damage tricked out in a single round. 9th level save or die spells are generally not quite as good. Under my suggestion, wraithstrike should be a 9th level spell and you would sacrifice another 9th level spell for arcane strike.

 

[RigaMortus2]

This makes no sense to me. Finger of Death has a duration of 1 round (you can't cast it 10 times over 10 rounds for free); presto it's ok for 2nd level?

Nope, just as 3.0 Haste isn't good for level 2. Level 3, sure...

The question is not how long, but what is done during the spells duration. For WS, that is a full attack at max power attack plus possibly other fun things... is 1 round enough? I say yes due to the effect. Really duration is a red herring. A really powerful effect that only requires 1 round is not limited by only lasting... 1 round.

There are a lot of powerful feat/spell/class combos. Do you want to list them all? Do you want to "ban" them all?

 

[RigaMortus2]

Where as I agree with Mr. Myagi, if you are not there, then you cannot defeat your foe. Mr. Myagi is almost a LG pacifist.

Sure you can, they are called ranged attacks. Guess what? Wraithstrike doesn't help w/ ranged attacks. You win, they lose.

Let's get back to the question at hand that I started. Is wraithstrike the wrong level.

Compared to true strike, the very next attack at +20 to hit. Standard action.

Wraithstrike, good for all attacks that round and a swift action.

At low level or one single attack, this spell is not a problem. If wraithstrike was for the next attack and 3rd level, this may be more in line with camparable power of the spells.

Now as written, if it were for 2 attacks, then it should be a 5th level spell, 3 attacks a 7th level spell and for a full set of attacks a 9th level spell. To the degree that damage can be done, the use of this spell is well worth a 9th level spell.

In my post 70, I showed where you could do about 400 points of damage tricked out in a single round. 9th level save or die spells are generally not quite as good. Under my suggestion, wraithstrike should be a 9th level spell and you would sacrifice another 9th level spell for arcane strike.

You are not looking at what you are giving up by maximizing on WS though. Make an actual build, and you will see that while you may be doing a lot of damage w/ WS, you are sacrificing in other areas. Either you yourself will also be hit just as easily because of low AC, or you won't have a ton of HPs like a person that concentrates on that, or a any plethora of other things (some combat related, some not).

 

[Nifft]

Nope, just as 3.0 Haste isn't good for level 2. Level 3, sure...

In my experience, there is NO level for 3.0e haste, because whatever level it would be available, it's always the best first spell to cast in any combat.

Thus, it's too strong for any level.

There are a lot of powerful feat/spell/class combos. Do you want to list them all? Do you want to "ban" them all?

There should always be choices. Wraithstrike is better than Quickened true strike in all situations except concealment + sneak attack. Wraithstrike is not as strong as 3.0e haste, for sure. But it's really really really strong for its level.

Cheers, -- N

 

[RigaMortus2]

There should always be choices. Wraithstrike is better than Quickened true strike in all situations except concealment + sneak attack. Wraithstrike is not as strong as 3.0e haste, for sure. But it's really really really strong for its level.

Cheers, -- N

Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I don't see it as strong as other people make it out to be. Let me rephrase that slightly... It is strong, but you need to make very specific builds to take advantage of it, and you often compensate in other areas when doing so. Just like any combo. There was a time (and it possibly still holds true) that Tripping-builds were considered more powerful than other melee builds (grappling, pure damage, disarming/sundering).

 

[wildstarsreach]

OK "WS is fine" people, what is it?

It's not WS, it is really polymorph that is the problem.

It's not WS, it is Eldritch K builds that are the problem.

It's not WS, it is Arcane Strike that is the problem.

It's not WS, it is Alter Self/Power Attack/Insert common Feat or class here...

Every example: it's not WS, it is X combined with WS.

Guess what all these have in common?

Yesterday, nobody cared if the sorcerer turned into a troll; yeah, he is now melee capable, but... on par with a same-level fighter, maybe. Today, we care. Why? hmmmm.....

{throw out persistent WS; that is silly.}

Yes, wraithstrike is the problem because it is a quickened/swift/immediate action, it applies to all attacks unlike comparable spells. This makes the spell problematic.

 

[wildstarsreach]

Sure you can, they are called ranged attacks. Guess what? Wraithstrike doesn't help w/ ranged attacks. You win, they lose.



You are not looking at what you are giving up by maximizing on WS though. Make an actual build, and you will see that while you may be doing a lot of damage w/ WS, you are sacrificing in other areas. Either you yourself will also be hit just as easily because of low AC, or you won't have a ton of HPs like a person that concentrates on that, or a any plethora of other things (some combat related, some not).

I have for a high level game. The character has 127 HP, AC 38, Attack 27/22/17/12

With a 2 rds of prep can stay longer than a fighter.

Fighter Stats HP 223, AC 42 attack 36/31/26/21.

 

[RigaMortus2]

I have for a high level game. The character has 127 HP, AC 38, Attack 27/22/17/12

With a 2 rds of prep can stay longer than a fighter.

Fighter Stats HP 223, AC 42 attack 36/31/26/21.

May I ask what levels?

It just seems to me that by the time you can get real use out of WS you have to be kinda high level anyway (level 12+) and at that point, aren't characters supposed to be good at what they do?

If you were doing 200 points of damage (or whatever the figure was) at a much earlier level, I can see it as being a problem. And even then, it is probably a combination of things that is causing the problem.

 

[Nifft]

Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I don't see it as strong as other people make it out to be. Let me rephrase that slightly... It is strong, but you need to make very specific builds to take advantage of it, and you often compensate in other areas when doing so. Just like any combo. There was a time (and it possibly still holds true) that Tripping-builds were considered more powerful than other melee builds (grappling, pure damage, disarming/sundering).

Tripping builds are IMHO stronger than many other melee builds. But that's okay, because they require so many feats to be really excellent that you've "paid" in flexibility. Also, trippers suffer from MAD (multiple ability dependency) if they want to go the Combat Reflexes, keep-'em-down route, which is one of the stronger trip tricks.

There are also effective counters to tripping. A 1st level Psionic power catfall (an otherwise weaker version of feather fall) negates one trip per round at the cost of your Immediate action, being a Dwarf helps a lot, swimming can help, many larger critters are immune (based on your size), oozes are immune to it, etc. It's strong, but not universally applicable.


Wraithstrike is not super-broken (like IMHO 3.0e haste was), that's for sure. IMHO it would be perfectly balanced by one of two things:

1/ Standard action to cast, gives you touch attacks all next round (like true strike). You can Quicken it as a 6th level spell.

2/ Swift action to cast, affects ONE attack.

Neither of these would really hurt Wizards, but might make the average Gish think carefully before filling her spell slots with nothing but wraithstrikes.

- - -

We certainly can agree to disagree. Each of us has his own game, after all. But you seem smart and rational, and I'm not so fixated on being right that I will ignore good arguments, so I'd appreciate criticism of the following reasoning:


IMHO Psionics is pretty well balanced. There's a Psionic feat chain (requires BAB +5 and three feats total) which allows you to make a melee attack as a touch attack once per round. The BAB prereq means it's aimed at PsiGish characters. You must make a DC 20 Concentration check to recharge this ability.

Three feats and pre-reqs requiring at least 6th level character, for the effect of a 2nd level spell? Seems okay.

Now, I also like Tome of Battle. There's a 2nd level maneuver in there which allows you to make a single attack as a Touch attack. If you're a Warblade, you can do this every other round, attacking normally on the in-between rounds.

So, seen in that light, a single touch attack for the price of a 2nd level spell is a bit too weak.

The main abuse I've seen with wraithstrike, though, is when someone uses a large number of attacks in a single round. Typically, with a form that has Multiattack to reduce its secondary natural attack penalties.

So... how about this:

Wraithstrike
Necromancy
Level: Assassin 3, Sorc/Wiz 2
Components: V
Casting time: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: One weapon or natural attack
Duration: 1 round

You let out a sickly moan, blah blah blah...

For the duration, your chosen weapon or natural attack resolves attack rolls as touch attacks, not normal attacks.

- - -

It's still an excellent choice for a Monk-Gish, good for a two-handed Power Attack Gish, and terrible for a Totemist 3 / Binder 5 / Aberrant Feat using natural attack monkey.

Thoughts?

Cheers, -- N