Is Wraithstrike the wrong level?

[Elemental]

Rather than banning or changing Wraithstrike , has anyone bothered trying to find other solutions? With a quick look I've come up with Wings of Cover (for single attacks) and Scintillating Scales as "counters" to Wraithstrike." These seem to be spells that dragons, at least, would learn, especially if there are gishes running around the countyside killing dragons with Wraithstrike."

And, these are both second level spells.

This reminds me of the arguments that 3.0 Harm was perfectly balanced because everyone could buy a Ring of Counterspells. Will this dragon be taking similar highly specific precautions against other level 2 spells, such as Glitterdust, Spiritual Weapon, Scorching Ray or Acid Arrow?

(edit--and a dragon casting an energy resistance spell to cover a vulnerability doesn't count, since that isn't in response to one specific spell)

And it's not just the dragon, don't forget. Everyone who isn't crazy fast will need to invest in spells specifically not to get mangled by this level 2 spell. At every level.

 

[Mistwell]

You simply are stating things here. Many people have said it is not working out "just fine" in fact it was used once or twice and immediately thereafter banned.

And I am saying that once or twice is hardly a fair sample to ban a spell, particularly since it sure sounded like they were both high level games with optimized characters.

You also claim it needs to be optimized somehow. That's simply not true. You just need a PC with power attack and 3/4 BAB. More is better, but not required.

Tell you what, work it out. Everyone has mentioned arcane strike as being important for the combo to work, so work those requirements in as well. From what I can tell, it's simply not a useful spell in 99% of the cases until around 10th level, and it doesn't really make a big impact until later, and only with Gish's, and only Gish's who dedicate their feats to make it happen. It's not just power attack. If all you have is power attack to back this up, you're dead. You need to be a melee combatant who also has many spellcasting levels to get the 2nd level spell slots, and you need to be facing opponants where it even matters. When you work that out, it seems to be to be a fairly tight window of times when it is useful over the career of an adventurer from level 1 to 20.

The horrible thing about Wraithstrike is that you simply don't need to optimize it to make it amazingly powerful.

You're wrong, and I think I'm not the only one that has detailed that. Most people were arguing stackig 4-5 things on top of each other, at high levels, to get the desired result out of this spell. A 7th level anything will not make great use of this spell. Nor at any level below that for the most part.

Example:

Any melee-capable monster capable of casting 2nd level spells (dragon, etc.) + wraithstrike = Many dead PC's, almost guaranteed. Just add spell, that's it. Nothing more.

Oh gee, a FRIGGEN DRAGON is your common example? Common man, there is a reason it's called Dungeons and Dragons. They made the dragons quite powerful. They are melee combatants and spellcasters with powerful stats across the board. Of COURSE it helps them. But they are not a fair example.

A PC with power attack and this spell with 3/4 BAB is instantly ferocious, often able to kill equal level CR's in one round or two. (thus defense is, well, not as critical)

Work it out. I think you are quite wrong in this claim, but let's see you actually work out the numbers on such a PC. See if you can make it a continually effective tactic at levels below 8.

A wizard with polymorph (pick any melee form) and this spell is brutal (see above example).

Again, having to turn to one of the few spells WOTC admitted as so broken they had to do a retroactive fix on it. Come on...if it is so easy, you don't need to turn to dragons and busted spell combos of discredited spells to work it out.

These are completely unoptimized builds. They simply stirred in Wraithstrike and got really gnarly.

A dragon and polymorphing under the old rules to be a melee fighter as a wizard is not optimized? How about completely optimized. Those two examples don't apply in 99%+ of the games out there.

A build that actually pays attention to this spell, even half-heartedly, and thus maximizes (for example) number of attacks, gets really gross. Build a two-weapon using gish with oversized weapons and power atack (lots of negatives "to hit" which don't matter pretty much), and cast Wraithstrike as often as possible. Really basic build, really nasty resuts.

So build it. Show us the example at a reasonable level.

I don't see how wraithstrike is NOT creating a huge jump in power even when PC's just use it casually. It's just a 2nd level spell. That's a pretty low resource for such an effect.

Because to use that second level spell you need to be both high level and have other abilities to make you good at melee attacks, like multiple attacks, high hit points, a high AC of your own, and enough spell slots to make it useful. It's not "just" a second level spell, it's a second level spell that apparently almost only high level characters can actually make good use out of.

Even something as dumb as alter self (trog form) grants +6 nat. AC allowing a gish or wizzie to handle 1-2 rounds of combat.

Alter self into the highest AC creature in the game is dumb? In debates in these forums about that spell, and awful lot of folks thought that tactic alone was very broken.

I am seeing a pattern here...you keep mentioning other combos that are themselves already overpowered, and combining them with this spell and proclaiming it broken. Couldn't it be the other stuff?

Trog has multiattack claw/claw/bite, then stir in weapon attacks, etc. All hit, etc. This is all really basic low level stuff. Once you hit level 8+, a half-optimized wraithstrike user will be intimidating. A competently optimized wraithstriker will be boring; way too powerful.

It's not really basic low level stuff. There are entire multi-page long threads talking about how not common that is.

 

[Mistwell]

My objection to this spell is the opposite. Being such a low level spell, it is available to a warrior class that takes just a couple level dip into a casting class and is available very early on.

Couple level dips? Just to get a couple of uses a day you need to take 3 levels, and to make it actually a useful tactic for your character it should be many more. Most builds here seem to count up a lot of spellcasting levels. So show us the broken combo at a relatively low level.

 

[Votan]

This reminds me of the arguments that 3.0 Harm was perfectly balanced because everyone could buy a Ring of Counterspells. Will this dragon be taking similar highly specific precautions against other level 2 spells, such as Glitterdust, Spiritual Weapon, Scorching Ray or Acid Arrow?

(edit--and a dragon casting an energy resistance spell to cover a vulnerability doesn't count, since that isn't in response to one specific spell)

And it's not just the dragon, don't forget. Everyone who isn't crazy fast will need to invest in spells specifically not to get mangled by this level 2 spell. At every level.

Yeah; the spell Miasma (pre-errata) in the Complete Divine was exactly the same way when it had no saving throw. It was so brutal that intelligent opponents would actually have to alter their default preparation just in case "somebody cast Miasma on me" to avoid this being an instant kill action.

Yes, 20th level wizards were worried about this spell and needed to take counter-measures.

 

[Mistwell]

All it requires is a standard everyday fighter/mage build

Nothing standard about a Gish. It's a very specific focus, and not it's own character class even.

past about 10th level (It gets really big at 15+ but that's not "extremely high" it's just high).

Right, a second level spell that is effective only at 10th level and above and only for Gish's who commonly fight things with a high AC that they otherwise would not be hitting as often. That doesn't sound common.

Yes if you don't see fighter/mages the spell isn't that worth it, but that's common enough.

I really do not think it is. It's popular on board to discuss, because it's an interesting speciality. But generally speaking, it's fairly rare.

You still haven't answered my previous question though, have you had any experience with this in a campaign?

We are talking about around 10 responses to my 1 response. Sorry if I miss something you say...it's hard to keep up.

To answer your qestion, yes we have, and we didn't find it very compelling. However, we don't tend to play high level games. I am open to the possibility it starts to break at high levels, if you build a character around the concept.

I ask because before I had any experience with it, I thought the spell was perfectly fine, didn't see any problem. Now that I've used it in a campaign I can see how problematic it is now and how much more problematic it will be later.

Well, our experiences so far are different, but again our games didn't go past 12th level (yet). Yeah I know...6 straight years of 3.X, and still nothing above level 12.

There are plenty of "huge" combos out there, many that generate more damage than wraithstrike combined with arcane strike and power attack. Most of them however are either a) really complicated or b) so excessively cheesey as to be immediately thrown out. Wraithstrike is simple and it's not cheesey it's just overly effective for a 2nd level spell.

It really doesn't seem very simple to me. It seems fairly complex. You need to multiclass as a Gish, and you probably use a prestige class from a relatively new book like Complete Mage, and you take a relatively unusual feat like arcane strike, and you have a high BAB and HPs and AC while also having enough spell slots to make use of this and be able to cast while in armor or have other protection. That doesn't seem simple to me. It seems a heck of a lot more complex than a raging barbarian with a two-handed greataxe and a huge strength and power attack. THAT is simple and powerful.

 

[Mistwell]

And it's not just the dragon, don't forget. Everyone who isn't crazy fast will need to invest in spells specifically not to get mangled by this level 2 spell. At every level.

I asked earlier, and I have yet to hear anyone claim their game broke after long term use of this spell (though several people stopped it quickly without letting it go on for a long test).

 

[Votan]

It really doesn't seem very simple to me. It seems fairly complex. You need to multiclass as a Gish, and you probably use a prestige class from a relatively new book like Complete Mage, and you take a relatively unusual feat like arcane strike, and you have a high BAB and HPs and AC while also having enough spell slots to make use of this and be able to cast while in armor or have other protection. That doesn't seem simple to me. It seems a heck of a lot more complex than a raging barbarian with a two-handed greataxe and a huge strength and power attack. THAT is simple and powerful.

Well, I would quibble about Arcane Strike being an usual feat. It's been on my radar from within a week of the release of the Complete Warrior as being an interesting spell.

In general, the problem with the spell is that it can be pushed into being too tough with focus. Many potentially problem spells work that way. For example, Divine Power is pretty reasonable if and only of it can't be easily persisted. Blasphemy is a fine spell unless your cleric figures out how to add 10 caster levels and watches Titans and Dragons go down.

Polymorph can be a fine spell until people start scouring 10 monster manuals for the most overpowered form at every hit die level.

Wratihstrike works perfectly fine in the hands of a single classed wizard or sorcerer. I am not even worried about it in the hands of an assassin. But that example of a 6th level cleric using divine metamagic to persist it at 6th level was chilling. If he then invests the feats and gold to be able to persist Divine Power as well then the warriors are going to have a hard time keeping up.

 

[Heckler]

This reminds me of the arguments that 3.0 Harm was perfectly balanced because everyone could buy a Ring of Counterspells. Will this dragon be taking similar highly specific precautions against other level 2 spells, such as Glitterdust, Spiritual Weapon, Scorching Ray or Acid Arrow?

(edit--and a dragon casting an energy resistance spell to cover a vulnerability doesn't count, since that isn't in response to one specific spell)

When I mentioned that dragons in particualr might learn these spells, that was because these spells are useful in many situations beyond Wraithstrike. Scintillating Scales also defends against Scorching Ray, Acid Arrow, or any other spell or attack requiring a touch attack.

Wings of Cover defends against all the spells you listed execpt Glitterdust.

Invisibility, Blur and Mirror Image can all work to counter Wraithstrike and these are well known common spells that people use all the time(again, all second level). There's no need to specialize to counter Wraithstrike. I'm thinking a lot of people got caught off guard when it was introduced into their game, and they opted to "fix" it out of game rather than in game. Its like introducing gunpowder into a game. It would dominate for awhile until people learned to compensate for it.

And it's not just the dragon, don't forget. Everyone who isn't crazy fast will need to invest in spells specifically not to get mangled by this level 2 spell. At every level.

Yep, the same way all monsters pick up fire immunity to deal with the ever popular Fireball.

 

[wildstarsreach]

I asked earlier, and I have yet to hear anyone claim their game broke after long term use of this spell (though several people stopped it quickly without letting it go on for a long test).

Just because it has not broke a game somewhere doesn't mean that it won't possibly in the future.

Have nuclear weapons destroyed our world in order to see them as a problem that could destroy us all.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Nothing standard about a Gish. It's a very specific focus, and not it's own character class even.

We could also invent a fireball that does 1d6 damage per 2 levels level but added 4d12 damage per level of evocation specialist wizard. Evocation specialization is a very specific focus and not even it's own character class and the spell would only really be useful for those evocation specialist wizards. That wouldn't make it a good addition to the game though.

The argument that a spell is only broken in the hands of those who would actually want to use it is not very convincing. Spells should be analyzed for their power, balance, and usefulness in the cases where they are going to be used not in the cases where they won't. To use another example, my Living Arcanis character has a 9th level cleric cohort. With her 8 strength, 10 dex, and compete lack of any melee focused combat feats, Divine Power is pretty anemic for her. (Wohoo, she gets to attack at +12/+7 for 1d8+2 instead of +6/+1 for 1d8--it's a big improvement, sure, but +12/+7 for 1d8+2 isn't going to be helpful in any combats that call for casting spells. She could make the spell persistent and it STILL wouldn't be broken). That does not, however, prove that Divine Power is a weak spell. In the hands of my Shadowbane Stalker character or my melee focused cleric, it is a great spell.

Likewise, wraithstrike may not be broken for a single-classed arcane caster with low hit points and a +1/2 BAB. In fact, it's probably useless for most of them just like Divine Power is useless to my Living Arcanis cohort. The case where wraithstrike should be examined for balance is the people who actually will use it: fighter/mage characters who plan on fighting in melee and have access to builder books (like the one wraithstrike comes out of). Thus, the fighter/wizard/eldritch knight with Arcane Strike is the paradigmatic case for wraithstrike, not the exception.

Right, a second level spell that is effective only at 10th level and above and only for Gish's who commonly fight things with a high AC that they otherwise would not be hitting as often. That doesn't sound common.

It's effective a good ways below 10th level. About 4th level (when the standard fighter/wizard would cast the spell) is when it would become useful. Granted, it's not quite as broken at those levels, and its useful in a different way (it's more of a big bonus to attack than an autohit), but it's still pretty darn good at those levels.

And, as for commonly fighting things with high ACs that they would otherwise not be hitting as often? What other kind of fighter mages are there? I can guarantee you that a fighter/mage power Attacking for his full base attack bonus will otherwise not hit as often as he does when he's using wraithstrike unless he's fighting a raging naked barbarian with a dex penalty at low levels or one of less defensive dire animals. There was only one battle where I remember my fighter/wizard starting off using wraithstrike and then deciding that it wasn't necessary. One fight in four levels or so of play is not much.

It really doesn't seem very simple to me. It seems fairly complex. You need to multiclass as a Gish, and you probably use a prestige class from a relatively new book like Complete Mage, and you take a relatively unusual feat like arcane strike, and you have a high BAB and HPs and AC while also having enough spell slots to make use of this and be able to cast while in armor or have other protection. That doesn't seem simple to me. It seems a heck of a lot more complex than a raging barbarian with a two-handed greataxe and a huge strength and power attack. THAT is simple and powerful.

Sure, creating a wraithstrike using fighter/mage is more complex than a raging, power attacking, barbarian. But it's also orders of magnitudes more effective than a simple raging power attacking barbarian. I know my character (who was using this newfangled prestige class called Eldritch Knight from that rare and relatively new book, the DMG) dropped a Cornugon in one round with attacks left over (and without a weapon that could penetrate its DR at that time) when he was 14th or 15th level. A barbarian who can do that reliably (ie, without assuming that he rolls really well and scores crits) is not going to be simple if he exists at all. Similarly, I could create a 17th level power attacking barbarian NPC and he would be powerful, but he wouldn't be reliably dropping a similar level fighter from full hit points to nearly dead in a single round without critting and killing that fighter with a slightly hot set of damage dice or a crit. (On the other hand, the fighter/wizard/eldritch Knight with just Arcane Strike, wraithstrike, and NPC gold did that).

As for Arcane Strike, I think it comes standard for any fighter/mage that has a copy of complete warrior. It's a bit like rapid shot for archers or Power Attack for melee fighters who don't use light weapons--good enough and important enough to the concept that, of course you're going to take it.