Is Wraithstrike the wrong level?

[Elemental]

I asked earlier, and I have yet to hear anyone claim their game broke after long term use of this spell (though several people stopped it quickly without letting it go on for a long test).

It seems like you're moving the goalposts a bit here. It was asked if Wraithstrike was broken in actual play--examples were provided, then you bought in the new criteria of a "long test".

Against enemies with a touch AC of 18 (above average), my eldritch knight could power attack for an extra 20 damage and still hit on a 2+. How many encounters would have been needed to prove that was broken?

Yes, there are defences against being hit, which affect all melee-fighting characters--but when the Wraithstriker does hit, they'll be doing vastly more damage. And a fighter-caster is more likely to have ways past those defenses than a straight battler, I might add.

 

[RigaMortus2]

This reminds me of the arguments that 3.0 Harm was perfectly balanced because everyone could buy a Ring of Counterspells. Will this dragon be taking similar highly specific precautions against other level 2 spells, such as Glitterdust, Spiritual Weapon, Scorching Ray or Acid Arrow?

Only if that is something they are worried about. There isn't a way to protect yourself 100% against EVERY type of attack. If you want to focus on boosting your touch AC because you fear Wraithstrike, then why not? I personally hate being Charmed or Dominated of Feared, so I try to take precautions to prevent those conditions in every character I play (though sometimes I am simply unable to).

 

[RigaMortus2]

Wratihstrike works perfectly fine in the hands of a single classed wizard or sorcerer. I am not even worried about it in the hands of an assassin. But that example of a 6th level cleric using divine metamagic to persist it at 6th level was chilling. If he then invests the feats and gold to be able to persist Divine Power as well then the warriors are going to have a hard time keeping up.

IIRC, there is errata on Divine Metamagic that only allows you to apply the feat to Divine spells. I might be wrong, and this could be a house rule I am thinking of. Anyway...

A 6th level Mage (same level as your 6th level divine metamagicking cleric) can easily dispel it. Heck, even if he doesn't know the spell is active, tossing out a Targetted Dispel to debuff enemies is not a new concept (our group does it all the time).

 

[RigaMortus2]

Moving away is a bit of a cop out option--that suggests that the only way to stop the Wraithstrike PC is to constantly flee, every round if necessary, to prevent a full attack. And at high levels, even this chicken strategy can be avoided with abilities that add Pounce, etc.

I'm sorry, but I just have to chime in and say I totally disagree with this statement. Not only is "staying out of melee combat with a melee-optimized fighter" a SMART thing to do, it is a COMMON thing to do. You would not be doing your character justice if they did not take advantage of alternate ways to avoid being hit in melee, whether this be flight, concealment, burrowing, incorporealness/etherealness, blink, invisibility, etc. This is a valid defense that affects all melee attackers, not just wraithstrikers. To quote Mr. Myagi from The Karate Kid II, "Best defense, no be there".

 

[RigaMortus2]

This reminds me - a lot - of the old 3.0 haste discussions that raged.

One excellent way to get to the root of it is this... (thinking about haste now):

If 3.0 haste were stripped from 3.0 entirely - never existed - and then suddenly a player came to you with 3.0 haste and asked if it was a reasonable 3rd level spell, what would your line of logic be?

3.0 haste: no action to cast (as you immediately get another partial)
3.0 haste: allows 2 spells/round or partial charge/full attack for the fighters

Are we comparing 3.0 Haste to Wraithstrike now? There is a problem with comparing the two. A big difference between them IMHO, which I will attempt to demonstrate...

If a player came to me as you proposed, I would ask one of two questions:

1) Does your 3.0 Haste have a duration of 1 round? If it's longer than that, then my answer is "No, I see it as broken". --- Not to mention (and correct me if I am remembering wrong), 3.0 Haste not just affected you, but could affect your party members too. --- Or is this 3.5 Haste? Eh...
2) Does your Wraithstrike spell have a duration of more than 1 round? If the answer is "Yes" I would say "No, it seems broken to me". If the answer is "No, just works for 1 round" then I would say, "Sure, why not".

 

[RigaMortus2]

I have a severe problem with wraithstrike. I am running Red hand of Doom and basically a 9th level Sorcerer took out a CR10 red dragon without breaking a sweat due to it. He polymorphed into a hag, cast fly met it in hand to hand and wraithstriked twice. With such a low Touch AC (even with Shield and mage armour) the dragon was easy to hit with all attacks and with rend devestated the dragon. This was with virtually no intervention from the party or their cohorts.

So was your problem really with Wraithstrike, or was it really with Polymorph? Or was it more of a combination of Wraithstrike, Polymorph and Fly? Or maybe Sorcerers as a whole are too powerful, and they should be banned?

Seriously... from your description, I see Polymorph as the real culprit here. Fly just let you get to where you needed to be, and Wraithstrike just let you hit a little easier. Polymorph is where your power/damage came from. JMHO.

 

[RigaMortus2]

very expensive but yah he would be a absolute killing machine for a day!

Bb

Well, for about a day OR until he becomes dispelled, whichever comes first (personally I am betting on the Dispel Magic).

 

[RigaMortus2]

Definately on the improved invisibility! Who thought that was a balanced idea anyway?

Yeah, I mean it's not like you can negate it by Dispel Magic, See Invisibily, Invisibility Purge, Glitterdust or True Seeing.

 

[RigaMortus2]

FYI...
Wraithstrike can be made persistant by a 6th level Cleric of Mystra (Spell Domain):

Male Human(Select an Ethnicity) Clr6; CR 6;
Medium Humanoid (Human);
HD 6d8+6; hp 39;
Init +0; Spd 30 ft/x4;
AC 10 touch 10, flat-footed 10;
Base Atk/Grapple +4/+5;
;
SA&SQ Aura(Ex), Spontaneous Casting, Restricted Spells, Turn Undead(Su);
AL NG; SV Fort +6, Ref +2, Will +8;
Str 12(+1), Dex 10(+0), Con 12(+1), Int 12(+1), Wis 17(+3), Cha 14(+2);
Skills: .
Feats: Extra Turning, Extend Spell, Divine Metamagic (Persistent), Persistent Spell.



Mike

In other words, what Mistwell said:

It more and more seems that most objections to this spell involved very high level characters tailor made to be able to use this second level spell. It seems to me that such a situation would not be common, and not be sufficient to warrant a major objection to the spell overall.

 

[two]

ok guys

OK "WS is fine" people, what is it?

It's not WS, it is really polymorph that is the problem.

It's not WS, it is Eldritch K builds that are the problem.

It's not WS, it is Arcane Strike that is the problem.

It's not WS, it is Alter Self/Power Attack/Insert common Feat or class here...

Every example: it's not WS, it is X combined with WS.

Guess what all these have in common?

Yesterday, nobody cared if the sorcerer turned into a troll; yeah, he is now melee capable, but... on par with a same-level fighter, maybe. Today, we care. Why? hmmmm.....

{throw out persistent WS; that is silly.}