Is Wraithstrike the wrong level?

[Votan]

Dumb question,
How exactly is the lion casting a spell? I don't have wraithstrike in front of me, but it must have either verbal, somatic, and/or material components, none of which can be managed as a lion AFAIK.

Mark

Well, silent or stilled Wraithstrike is a third level spell. Silent and stilled is fourth level (according to both sources it is a V, S spell).

Reason #101 why polymorph is confusing is questions like this which do not, as far as I can tell, have clear answers. If you polymorph into an elf, obviously you can cast such a spell. But where does the line appear for each type of transform?

 

[Mort]

So give me a quick specific build.

The whole point is that you don’t need a “specific build.” The spell interacts well with anything that gives a remotely good BAB and power attack.

Something like ftr 1/wiz 6/EK X is perfectly fine (add whatever the DM allows such as a level of spell sword). Or just use spellsword, or a battle sorcerer or any number of viable fighter/mage builds.

I suppose you can argue that the spell is only to good for fighter/mages -- but that's like saying combat brute is only useful for a fighter that focuses on charging.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

But, Spirited Charge is only useful for a mounted fighter. It must be too weak.

I suppose you can argue that the spell is only to good for fighter/mages -- but that's like saying combat brute is only useful for a fighter that focuses on charging.

 

[Votan]

But, Spirited Charge is only useful for a mounted fighter. It must be too weak.

It is pretty weak, isn't it?

The damage is nice but it is so hard to apply and so easy to evade that it seems to be a waste of a feat most of the time even for the Paladins who are the closest to being able to exploit it.

 

[wildstarsreach]

So give me a quick specific build.

We've given the essentials of a build, there are many extras that aren't stated that may or may not have further affects. Do you want to see the entire character in stat block? Look at my post #70 and it has all the essentials that you need.

 

[Nifft]

How exactly is the lion casting a spell? I don't have wraithstrike in front of me, but it must have either verbal, somatic, and/or material components, none of which can be managed as a lion AFAIK.

I probably need to go back and look at how Swift action spells work. Sorry, no doubt my mistake. Thanks for catching it!

So instead of Lion or Girallon, choose Thri-Kreen (four claws, one poison bite).

Cheers, -- N

 

[Mistwell]

Human Fighter 1/Wizard 6/Eldritch Knight 3

Casts 4th level spells (therefore improved Invisibility). Gets Wraithstrike at level 4 and is able to be effective in melee at that level using the spell. Reach is essential to not being hit as often as you hit others. It might be worth moving expertise up the list (even above power attack) if you have trouble with people hitting you too often.

Feats
1(H): Exotic Weapon Proficency (Spiked Chain) [PHB]
1(F): Power Attack [PHB]
1: Cleave [PHB]
3: Practiced Caster [CA or CD]
6: Combat Expertise [PHB]
7(EK): Improved Trip [PHB]
9: Arcane Strike [CW]


Finish is material dependent. If you have access to Complete Mage the obvious one is:

Human Fighter 1/Wizard 6/Eldritch Knight 1-3/Abjurant Champion 1-5/Eldritch Knight 4-8

Replace Practiced Caster with Combat Casting and move the Practiced Caster later in the build.

Final Character has 18th level wizard casting and BAB +17.

Sorry, when I said specific, I meant give me a specific actual build. You know, standard array stats, average hit points, standard equipment for that level, saves, average attack bonus and damage per round in melee, etc...

But already I can tell from what you posted that the character in question is weak relative to the rest of the party. Looks to be around the equivalent of a bard. I know that character gets more powerful at higher levels, but I thought we were discussing how wraithstrike would be overpowered. Sure doesn't look more powerful than what you could do as a straight blaster wizard or straight chain-tripper fighter at that level (10th).

 

[IanB]

Trying to Evaluate wraithstrike without involving other spells that come from *the same source as wraithstrike* is setting a pretty ridiculous requirement, I think.

 

[Mistwell]

The whole point is that you don’t need a “specific build.” The spell interacts well with anything that gives a remotely good BAB and power attack.

Something like ftr 1/wiz 6/EK X is perfectly fine (add whatever the DM allows such as a level of spell sword). Or just use spellsword, or a battle sorcerer or any number of viable fighter/mage builds.

I suppose you can argue that the spell is only to good for fighter/mages -- but that's like saying combat brute is only useful for a fighter that focuses on charging.

My point is that when you actually get into real numbers, you find it isn't nearly as good as it seems at first blush. If you are arguing that the spell is overpowered with "almost anything", then it should be REALLY easy to demonstrate it, shouldn't it?

Just show me how it actually functions in an overpowered manner with an actual build at, say, 8th level using the standard array of stats and equippment.

 

[Mistwell]

We've given the essentials of a build, there are many extras that aren't stated that may or may not have further affects. Do you want to see the entire character in stat block? Look at my post #70 and it has all the essentials that you need.

I want to see how the average attack and damage bonus against your average opponent at that level works out, relative to your defensive abilities such as average AC and hit points and saves.

You know...the stuff that shows it's overpowered. This is like pulling teeth. In threads with stuff like divine metamagic and persistent spell, people let the specific builds fly. Here, the builds seem suspiciously general and comments seem to be saying "it's self evident". No, it isn't self evident. You have several people disputing that it actually works out to an overpowered character when you build something to make this an effective tactic without using some other known broken build. So, show us the build. Break down the actual numbers.

I mean, you guys SAID you saw it used several times in games where it was broken, right? So just post that build. What is so hard about that?