Isn't it kind of cheating to post here?

[Mark]

Well, sometimes the DM desn't give a group enough to go on, but I think it is best for the game if the players let the DM know that and for the DM to give the nudge or more clues. Just my own opinion, of course...

Sometimes it's the Players and sometimes it's the GM.

Asking for help should not be penalized, no matter where the request is from or to.

IMO, (regarding riddles or puzzle solving) that's only really your call when you're the DM. To circumvent the DM's choice in that matter by not giving him a chance to decide how much more information the group is given sidesteps a basic trust covenant in the game (that the DM will give you the tools to handle the problems you are meant to handle and that the players will not meta-game). If the DM hasn't approved between-session use of EN World as a resource (and especially if it is a single player utilizing the source without the approval of the other players in the group) then doing so is akin to keeping an open Monster Manual under the table and "accidentally" dropping your dice so that you can slip under and read up on your foes during combat.

I tend to run campaigns that are simplistic to my Players (they are smarter then I am) and they tend to not need the help. Me- I need help tying my shoes.

Well, that's a different issue, isn't it? Just because you would make one call as a GM yourself, doesn't mean that you should be making the same call for another group when you are just one of the players. Even if that DM would make the same call, it is their right to do so without your circumvention.

 

[MonsterMash]

I see this quite a bit here. People post looking for advice on how to overcome a challenge in their game or to solve a puzzle. I understand if a DM is looking for ways to spice up his game and keep his players on their toes, but when players are asking for advice on how to beat an encounter, it seems like cheating. And the weird thing is that I see so many people give them advice on how to "beat" their DM's encounter.

I would be disapointed if a player in my game asked for advice on how to kill something the next time he encounters it. We are basically making life harder on the DM by giving advice to his players...the players will be defeating his encounters easily now and he has to work harder to challenge them even more.

Is this a valid concern?

I think this is a bit exaggerated as using the wider gaming community for advice is nothing wrong to me, as a DM I'm not too worried about players coming here and asking for advice in dealing with something as untimately only people who have gamed with me are likely to know exactly what I'll do with a given enocounter and I do like to use challenges effectively. After all I'm not going to go: "The kobolds launch a human wave attack[sic] on your party of 15th level PCs".

As a player I probably don't come here for advice much, but do get ideas for both playing and DMing from reading the advice threads.

 

[Barak]

Well I didn't ask the question because I believed it was cheating, but because I was interested in how people viewed the same question from the other side. Here's how I view the whole issue, from both sides, using comparisons.

Dm asking help:
On "fluff" issues: It's very akin to an author asking friends (authors or not themselves) their ideas on a plot point, or drawing inspiration from what they said to build a plot point. As a reader, I wouldn't feel "cheated" if I learned the author did that, so as a player, I don't either.
On "crunch" issue: It's very akin to a scientist asking other scientists their views/findings on something they are working on. It's not cheating, so as a player, I don't view it as cheating either.

Player asking help:
on "fluff" issues: It's very akin to an actor asking friends (actors or not themselves) their ideas on how to portray a particular character on stage/camera. As an audience member, I wouldn't feel cheated, therefore I do not as a DM either.
on "crunch" issues: It's very akin to a baseball player asking fellow players on tips on how to go to bat against a specific pitcher. As a pitcher, I wouldn't feel cheated, therefore I do not as a DM either.
One caveat: Asking other players specifics questions about, say, a published adventure would be more akin to a baseball player asking another player the name of a doctor who will give him some 'roids. That, I feel, is cheating, therefore I would view it as such as a DM. Of course, it's not different from the player -buying- the adventure in the first place, or the baseball player finding the 'roids on his own.

Conclusion? 'Roids are bad! Err. I mean, reading up (or asking specific questions) an adventure you are involved in is bad. Everything else just enhance gameplay.

 

[Gentlegamer]

In my opinion, some challenges are meant for the players, not the characters. That is, your character may have maxed out his "Tactical Skill" or is a high level archmage, etc, but that doesn't mean that your character will by default be able to answer certain challenges. This is, after all, a game, and it is the player playing the game, not the character. It is similar to games that incorporate horror elements . . . the goal is to affect the player, not the character (in most cases). Seeking outside the game help can undermine this aspect of game play.

 

[Oryan77]

I don't have a problem with a DM asking for help online because a DM is the biggest cheater anyway, he's supposed to be a cheater so he can run a great game. Of course it's impossible for the DM to have all the answers, so I see nothing wrong with a DM posting online for help. The help he will recieve will improve his game for the players.

But a player isn't supposed to have all the answers because his PC won't have all the answers. People use the argument, "My Wizard has a 20 INT but I flunked out of Highschool....I can't roleplay him appropriately, so I need the help". I don't think that's the correct way to look at it. You also don't have a 20 CHA (well only a couple of us don't), but I'm sure you don't post online for help on how to roleplay your Bard romancing a barmaid and impregnating her that night. That's what skill checks are for. Just because a guy is a Rocket Scientist doesn't mean he has a better chance at problem solving a riddle or surviving a confrontation than a guy who fixes car engines. People like to think that just because you have a degree & work for NASA that you are overall smarter than people who don't. This isn't true...you are book smart in your area of expertise, but that doesn't mean you can't be stumped by a riddle or a puzzle like everyone else or be out witted by a college dropout.

I work at Stanford University and am surrounded by smart people all day long and I never went to college. And I can tell you one thing, most of the people I meet who are really well spoken and smart guys have the common sense of a stink bug. They are great mathemetitians or english majors, but if it doesn't have to do with their major, it's like dealing with a child and teaching them about life. They need their hand held just to deal with everyday life outside of their career. It's impossible to play out a PC's ability scores because there is no correct way to immitate it, life is too random.

For me, I prefer my players gain their knowledge strictly from the resources I provide in or out of our game. I wouldn't mind them reading online and learning interesting ways to use their skills/spells. It's just when it's a specific obstacle that they go online asking for advice on how to overcome it that I have a problem with. For example, if the player just learned the darkness spell and wanted to learn how to use it effectively in game, it would be ok to me if he got advice online about good combos with the spell. It will help make our game fun for me because he'll be challenging me in return, but on fair grounds. But, if he knows he's about to fight a Mind Flayer & tackle a puzzle in the next room, and he goes online asking for advice on strategies vs a Mind Flayer & opinions on the puzzle, that's not cool. As a DM, we setup the encounter to challenge our friends, not the entire online community. If you're a smart wizard or skilled fighter, roll knowledge or sense motive checks to learn what you want to know if you have problems. If you have problems dealing with an NPC, play it yourself & use skills if it will help. If you fail, then your PC just learned from it & can use that knowledge next time. Yes it's a game, that's why you're playing it. There is a reason that the PHB doesn't come with a chapter for strategies vs specific encounters....you're supposed to have a hard time against them and overcome it on your own, that's what a game is. Finding out ways to overcome challenges outside of the game is no different to me than reading the MM and finding out ways to defeat it's defenses. That's exactly what getting advice is, you're learning how to bypass defenses more easily.

Of course this is just my opinion for my own game. Everyone plays differently & I understand that. I just view that type of action as being the same as someone reading strategy books on how to walk through Baldur's Gate....not my cup of tea. But if the group & DM is ok with it, then I think it's perfectly ok.

 

[Timeboxer]

You also don't have a 20 CHA (well only a couple of us don't), but I'm sure you don't post online for help on how to roleplay your Bard romancing a barmaid and impregnating her that night. That's what skill checks are for.

I'm sorry, this just makes me boggle on all sorts of levels.

 

[Oryan77]

I'm sorry, this just makes me boggle on all sorts of levels.

I don't know if boggle is a good thing or bad, but it was meant to be funny. I hope it wasn't misunderstood. By "us" I meant only a couple of us "Enworlder's" don't have a 20 CHA

My point was that we don't need out-of-game assistance to roleplay an ability score. So the excuse of, "I don't have a 20 INT so I need help roleplaying it" doesn't hold up in my view

 

[Harmon]

"I don't have a 20 INT so I need help roleplaying it" doesn't hold up in my view

Must be nice to be that confident. Wish I was even half that confident.

I have trouble buying the fact that any one I know can play a 20 Int (well aside from maybe one person) character and come even close to playing it right.

We play to be someone that we are not, someone that is more capable then we are or someone that is in a world that we can only imagine. I play my Wizard because he is more intelligent then I am, because he is more Cha and much Wiser then I am. When something comes up that I think he would simply snap his fingers on and say- "I have a plan," I should be able to do just that- unfortunately I have not the mental abilities to do that. Sorry, but I am not that able minded, and I know that I am not.

That is just mine opinion though, I see that you have yours and I accept that (and respect it).

One of my GMs has told me not to ask for assistance on EN in his campaigns and I will do so, however I will not stretch my stretch my character's Int above my own (thus the plans to play another wizard are being set aside). The other GM has made a number of points that I should ask for help, and until I hear otherwise I will continue to do so at whatever forum I can (more then likely here on EN for reasons I will not go into here).

With regards to puzzles. Our characters have been through more then a few challanges that required puzzles to be figured out. I do not bother with them, I suck at puzzles. My Int 20 Wiz should be pretty good at them but every single time that he has come up to them the Fighter/Barbarian in the group figured them out- why? Because his Player is smarter then I am, because he can figure them out. How should that be played? If that was written as a story why would the fighter/barb be the one to figure it out?

 

[Oryan77]

With regards to puzzles. Our characters have been through more then a few challanges that required puzzles to be figured out. I do not bother with them, I suck at puzzles. My Int 20 Wiz should be pretty good at them but every single time that he has come up to them the Fighter/Barbarian in the group figured them out- why? Because his Player is smarter then I am, because he can figure them out. How should that be played? If that was written as a story why would the fighter/barb be the one to figure it out?

As I mentioned in my post before, the way I see it, being smart doesn't mean you're better at solving puzzles/riddles or better at dealing with things in general. It just means you are knowledgable in your area of expertise (or several areas of expertise). I would think of your situation in game as your wizard being stumped (maybe he was over analyzing the puzzle) and the barbarian used common sense and figured it out first. If you as a player can't figure out a good plan, it's the same as your Wizard not being very tactical because maybe he's just a nerdy bookworm who knows everything about Arcane magic but not how to use it effectively. Sure he's a genius....but he's a genius at his craft, not at life and everything in general. Compare adults vs children when solving puzzles/riddles. A lot of the time adults are unable to solve them, but children do it easily. People say this is because children look for the obvious answers first while adults look at it more complicated. Things like "problem solving" and "tactics" don't completely rely on intelligence, so I don't assume a wizard PC played by a college professor will survive any better than my PC with the same build. He might have memorized all of his spells and won't need to refer to the books, but I might be able to use my spells tactically better than him.

I'm not confident in the fact that I can play a 20 INT PC because I'm smart. I'm confident in playing it because if my own intelligence fails me, I can roll a check to use my PC's INT bonus. If I can't play something out myself, that's what my dice and skill checks are for. We aren't expected to play 20 INT PC's as if we were that smart. You're supposed to fall back on the skill checks. In my game, if players can't solve a puzzle, I give them each the chance to roll an INT check. And even then, it's still possible for the Wizard to roll low and fail it and the Barbarian rolls high and succeeds.

When I began playing D&D, I wasn't very good at thinking outside of the box. When I started reading fantasy novels, it really helped me out. I use or ask people for general references to help me play better. I don't ask people for specific answers to overcome specific challenges in game though.

 

[Harmon]

Okay Oryan, I hear you- not sure I agree but my view of my character (the one used as an example) fits what you say but I can see where it might fit some characters.

To those of you concerned about Players using EN to "cheat" by asking for help, I give you this thread- http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=125058

Consider that I asked for assistance with a Beholder recently and cringed at the tactics that were being passed onto my GM. While I know he is smart enough to have figured out most of what he read, I am sure that thread helped him more then it helped me (and I started it).

So- thank you, and have a good weekend.