Level Up (A5E) Issue with maneuvers

[Sword of Spirit]

I would guess that multiclass characters who get maneuvers all use the same chart for maximum maneuver degree, so it probably is partly for compatibility with multiclassing.

 

[niklinna]

This is actually really a good point. In particular I appreciate how the adept speed actually improves the following techniques, which I haven't noticed at first, but still I don't like it. It's a tax that makes all the sense in the world, but it's still a tax. I'm not sure about how fair will be this comparison, but I think that you can have these same situations for spells, while the progression isn't forced on the player.

A Sorcerer doesn't have to learn "Long jump" or "Levitate" in order to learn "Fly", while an Adept have to learn his version of "Long jump" in order to learn his version of "Fly", and to learn all of this he needs to learn to be faster.

Hadn't been paying attention to this, but I went back and looked at the techniques and I gotta say I agree, especially for the ones that implement their effect via a spell like spider climb or water walk. If you had to say, run very fast* to move across water or up a wall, and it wasn't a spell, I could see a minimum speed requirement—which you could attain via Adept Speed or some other way. (Even then, for Gale Walk, there's no distinction between a standing and a running jump.)

Otherwise, you have a spell you can cast and it does magic. Frankly I'd rather these things weren't implemented as spells (with their VSM components and all, which these technique descriptions do not say aren't required, so...that's cheesy). But, we're close enough to publishing that I doubt that's gonna change.

* Not an endorsement of the film, but the clip illustrates the point.

 

[Faolyn]

A Sorcerer doesn't have to learn "Long jump" or "Levitate" in order to learn "Fly", while an Adept have to learn his version of "Long jump" in order to learn his version of "Fly", and to learn all of this he needs to learn to be faster.

A Sorcerer isn't forced to waste "Spells Known" to prove it's improving his control over the law of physics, while the Adept is forced to waste "Techniques Known" in order to prove his control over the law of physics.

One way to look at it is that spells are, well, magic. Spells literally let you ignore the laws of physics. But now that the Adept is no longer a mystical monk who uses a magical ki to power their abilities, and instead relies on physical ability, the same as every other martial.

The Adept unlocks 3rd degree Maneouvers at level 8, but can't use them until level 10 unless it pay a feat as a Tax, the stars aligns or it prays Yog-Sothoth.
The Adept unlocks 5th degree Maneouvers at level 17, but can't use them until level 19 and this time it doesn't even have a feat to waste.

And this, yes, it's very dumb. No other class disallows you from getting a new ability when you become eligible to get the new ability.

 

[Jmarso]

Bottom line, from time immemorial: if you don't like the way a rule reads / plays, house rule it. If your house rule then seems broken, go back to the RAW and try it or modify your house rule. No biggie. You do you!

 

[niklinna]

Bottom line, from time immemorial: if you don't like the way a rule reads / plays, house rule it. If your house rule then seems broken, go back to the RAW and try it or modify your house rule. No biggie. You do you!

But we are on forums and must complain or we'll have nothing to talk about! Think of the poor gamers who spend their benighted hours ignorant of EN World.

 

[Timespike]

This is actually really a good point. In particular I appreciate how the adept speed actually improves the following techniques, which I haven't noticed at first, but still I don't like it. It's a tax that makes all the sense in the world, but it's still a tax. I'm not sure about how fair will be this comparison, but I think that you can have these same situations for spells, while the progression isn't forced on the player.

A Sorcerer doesn't have to learn "Long jump" or "Levitate" in order to learn "Fly", while an Adept have to learn his version of "Long jump" in order to learn his version of "Fly", and to learn all of this he needs to learn to be faster.

Sincere piece of advice: stay away from GURPS if prerequisites bother you. In order to learn to throw fireballs in GURPS, you have to learn (no joke, this is the actual prerequisite tree!) shape fire and create fire. But before you can learn create fire, you need to know ignite fire and seek fire, and to learn shape fire, you must know ignite fire.

Now, it's noteworthy that a GURPS firemage can do a LOT more with fire than any D&D character I've ever seen; each one of those prerequisites is useful in its own right. But there's definitely a prerequisite tree to follow.

I think the spells in GURPS (they all work like that, by the way, with more complex ones building on simpler ones) are a good analogy for what's going on here. Not only does it make more logical sense that you have to run before you can fly, but your increased land speed never stops being useful. It's also worth noting that the adept is learning to use his body to do this crazy superhuman nonsense rather than just grabbing some magical energy and shaping it. So it's more strenuous, but it's also got knock-on benefits along the way.

(I don't really expect this to change your emotional reaction to prerequsites, but a little bit of soft world lore might make getting the proverbial pill down easier in play?)

 

[niklinna]

Not only does it make more logical sense that you have to run before you can fly, but your increased land speed never stops being useful. It's also worth noting that the adept is learning to use his body to do this crazy superhuman nonsense rather than just grabbing some magical energy and shaping it. So it's more strenuous, but it's also got knock-on benefits along the way.

But the Adept is not using their body, they're casting casting a spell to do it, which usually involves arcane muttering and waving of hands, as well as a feather or other material component, and which has no established logical sense. Other spellcasters certainly don't learn to run, or even necessarily levitate, before they learn to cast a fly spell.

I sure hope the A5E Ranger isn't casting spells to achieve their amazing feats of prowess, since they've also been billed as not having spellcasting in the base class.

Increased land speed can be gained through several routes, but Gale Walk and Hurricane Walk requires specific, Adept-only techniques as prereqs.

 

[Timespike]

But the Adept is not using their body, they casting casting a spell to do it, which usually involves arcane muttering and waving of hands, as well as a feather or other material component, and which has no established logical sense. Other spellcasters certainly don't learn to run, or even necessarily levitate, before they learn to cast a fly spell.

I sure hope the A5E Ranger isn't casting spells to achieve their amazing feats of prowess, since they've also been billed as not having spellcasting in the base class.

Increased land speed can be gained through several routes, but Gale Walk and Hurricane Walk requires specific, Adept-only techniques as prereqs.

I think this is more just an effort to make the mechanics consistent, but you make a valid point. I'd forgotten that it actually used the spell. (Maybe someone else on the team has the full rule set committed to memory already, but I sure don't!)

 

[Faolyn]

Sincere piece of advice: stay away from GURPS if prerequisites bother you. In order to learn to throw fireballs in GURPS, you have to learn (no joke, this is the actual prerequisite tree!) shape fire and create fire. But before you can learn create fire, you need to know ignite fire and seek fire, and to learn shape fire, you must know ignite fire.

The GURPS spell Haircut literally has more prerequisites than the spell Invisibility or Permanent Madness. Sometimes their prereq list is a bit... odd.

Fortunately, the prereqs for the Adept's movement abilities are not nearly as onerous as GURPS prereqs--or even 3x feat chain prereqs.

 

[Timespike]

The GURPS spell Haircut literally has more prerequisites than the spell Invisibility or Permanent Madness. Sometimes their prereq list is a bit... odd.

Fortunately, the prereqs for the Adept's movement abilities are not nearly as onerous as GURPS prereqs--or even 3x feat chain prereqs.

Not anymore, thankfully, though you do still need a spell of each element to get Weaken, which is a prereq for haircut. It's still a bizarre degree of magical knowledge just to learn how to magically cut someone's hair. Don't mess with magical hairdressers, I guess?