D&D 3E/3.5 Issues that might arise from a "core book only" 3.5 campaign and possible fixes?

Orius

Legend
Like everyone said, limiting to core alone won't solve all the problems, since the primary casters are already strong in 3.5 core. Splats might help the characters that are not Tier 1 compete, but you can't just let things in nilly-willy either.

Some of the problems might be related to the 3.0/3.5 split; while 3.5 fixed things in 3.0 that didn't work so well or were broken, it broke other things along the way. Also, while 3.0 was still influenced by AD&D, 3.5 went its own way, and at times did things I didn't like, but that's a matter of personal taste. I might simply be prejudiced here by the dislike I had for the whole massive revision that was 3.5 here though.
 

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Tequila Sunrise

Adventurer
You might also want to consider using alternate Turn Undead rules, allowing clerics to do damage to undead instead. I forgot what book this rule came from.
It's in the Complete Divine, and it became an auto-include variant in my campaigns as soon as I discovered it. I would also ask my DMs to allow me to use it whenever I played a cleric.

Even aside from balance issues, d20-izing Turn Undead is a vast improvement in my book, especially when new players are involved. To this day, I couldn't tell you how core TU works to save my life. :/
 

Celebrim

Legend
I don't quite agree with the "1st level spell" as the litmus test. Some Feats have prerequisites: being a member of a race, class or other subgroup; having a certain alignment; having a certain stat minimum; having some certain mechanical ability or feature; being of a certain minimum level. The more difficult the prereq is to attain, the more powerful the feat can be, IMHO.

I agree to some extent. I think as a general rule, the minimum level at which the feat can be obtained should be seen as equivalent to gaining access to a spell first accessed at about that level. So a feat you can't take before 11th level ought to be roughly equivalent in power to gaining access a 6th level spell (or to 6th level spells!). Indeed, when you consider this standard and how conservative the 3.X designers where when it came to martial skills and feats, it's not at all hard to see why fighters got the shaft and many reviewers see the class as unable to even accomplish its primary role.

However, I think that comparison breaks down for feats that strengthen what spellcasters already do, simply because spellcasters already have the power weighted in their advantage. You'd be hard pressed to find examples of feats for martial characters that are even as powerful as the ability to cast 6 or so extra first level spells per day, and adding the ability to cast 6 additional first level spells per day is already powerful enough that you'd never allow that straight up at 1st level. Again, 'Sacred Healing' is a good example of how blasé designers were about strengthening already powerful classes with already powerful options, while how conservative they were about giving martial classes anything other than "hits things with a stick slightly harder", instead of what they actually needed which was more like, "I can overcome this obstacle with my own resources without having a spellcaster buff me against it."
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
Well, I agree that martial feats lack the "Oomph" the ones for casters pack. But Sacred Healing is not necessarily one I'd consider a poster child for that power disparity. Most mono-classed Clerics aren't going to be all that gung-ho about trading off TUs* for mass healing, especially in an Undead-heavy campaign. While that healing is powerful, it isn't going to offset the difficulties brought on when fight in undead you'd rather keep at a distance because of paralysis, energy drain or other effects. A powerful TU is worth far more than HP recovery.

Also, since it is AoE- affecting all living beings in the area- and not targeted, you can't actually use it in combat. Before or after, yes, but not during.

It really is one for the Paladins and multiclassed Clerics out there.**

Now, drop it into a campaign in which casters are seriously nerfed- what did they call it, "E6"?- and the build calculus changes significantly.









* also, the feat explicitly says only Turn Undead attempts can fuel this ability- turning of other types, like elementals or other creature types (typically gained from domains) don't work.


** the character I used it on was- when last played in 2013- a 13th level PC: Clc5/Sorc4/Geo4. Swamp-Thing inspired concept; not very good at turning undead.
 
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Dandu

First Post
If it wasn't limited to 1/day, then IMO the bonus it offers is simply too large and the feat too much of a no brainer. Whereas, spending a limited resource like a feat to gain a 1/day ability is an obvious tradeoff.
Law Devotion grants one use, with additional uses fueled by turn atempts. It's fairly expensive, though, so it's probably limited to two extra for characters who dont take Extra Turning or have Nightsticks.

I personally dont consider the bonus large enough to be problematic, or the fact that it's a no-brainer an issue. Power Attack is a no-brainer,
since it offers somethng most melee characters want.
 

Ridley's Cohort

First Post
I agree to some extent. I think as a general rule, the minimum level at which the feat can be obtained should be seen as equivalent to gaining access to a spell first accessed at about that level. So a feat you can't take before 11th level ought to be roughly equivalent in power to gaining access a 6th level spell (or to 6th level spells!). Indeed, when you consider this standard and how conservative the 3.X designers where when it came to martial skills and feats, it's not at all hard to see why fighters got the shaft and many reviewers see the class as unable to even accomplish its primary role.

[edited]... Again, 'Sacred Healing' is a good example of how blasé designers were about strengthening already powerful classes with already powerful options, while how conservative they were about giving martial classes anything other than "hits things with a stick slightly harder", instead of what they actually needed which was more like, "I can overcome this obstacle with my own resources without having a spellcaster buff me against it."

Lots of astute observations in this thread.

I have a slightly different take...

In 3e, the boosts are paced out over a much longer time frame, and that distorts the power curve in some important ways...

In a 1e campaign, 10ish level was Name Level and it was implied that the top tier magic items were falling into the PCs hands, e.g. Dancing Sword, Sunblade, Holy Sword, Vorpal Sword, Sword of Sharpness. Your magic items actually defined your 1e Fighter character in the same way we think of big feat stacks and prestige classes in 3e.

It was not necessarily considered such a problem that the Wizard outclassed the Fighter in certain important respects when the Fighter could potentially one shot kill with his Sword of Sharpness. Being such a Fighter dangled the carrot of glory and fun, so whether the game was exactly "fair" was adequately forgotten.

3e just sort of "forgot" this balancing mechanism baked into 1e, when it standardized stuff across 20 levels.

In comparison, while, for example, a 1e Paladin might pick up his gobsmackingly fun (full-powered) Holy Sword at the same time the casters are exploring the power of 5th and/or 6th level spells, in 3e the WBL encourage the DM to delay that momentously fun event until after all the spellcasters already have 8th level spells.

Getting back to Celebrim's point, the DM could choose to boost the feats for the martial classes, gauging against the big spells the spellcasters are getting. Or the DM could purposefully sprinkle in "DAMN fun!" magic sword and shields and armor and bows and helms that will boost the fightery classes.
 

Celebrim

Legend
In 3e, the boosts are paced out over a much longer time frame, and that distorts the power curve in some important ways...

Perhaps, but the problems in 3e start happening long before you hit 10th level, and the balance between classes (if we ignore the underpowered thief and monk) was better even after 10th level in 1e than in 3e. And this is true largely regardless of equipment issues, provided everyone has the same level of equipment. Certainly, in my 1e games, the sort of items you mention weren't falling into everyone's hand by 10th level, and PC's couldn't count on optimal kits of belts of giant strength, gauntlets of ogre power, and hammers of thunderbolts, vorpal blades, or holy avengers.

The problems 3e introduced in spellcasting are numerous, and each of them by itself probably isn't wholly breaking, but collectively they are a mess:

a) Changes in the saving throw mechanic: One thing you should note just how much better a 1e Fighter's saving throws are overall at high levels compared to any other class. The fighter improving his save every 2 levels, and continuing to improve it up into the high levels meant that while other classes might have one good save as good or better than a fighter, the fighter was generally the best or second best in every single category - and there were more than three. There is just no comparison in 3e to how good the 1e fighter's saves actually were. It was better than having three good saving throws, because to make the situation even worse, the 3e rules boosted the difficulty of making a saving throw by increasing the DC of the saving throw by the spell level or by 1/2 the HD of the creature (in the case of abilities). In 1e, as a character leveled up, he failed saving throws less and less often - which was essential because as he leveled up he faced more and more 'save or die' effects. But as a consequence of the 3e change, as a character leveled up, he passed saving throws less and less often as saving throw DC's increased faster than saving throw bonuses improved. This meant high level 3e revolved entirely around having absolute defense's to lethal threats - death ward, freedom of action, hero's feast, mind blank, etc - and this in turn meant that while spellcasters were capable of defending themselves, non-spellcasters were wholly reliant on spellcasters.

2) Changes in the ease of casting: In 1e, a spellcaster casting a spell was vulnerable. If hit, the spell would fail. While casting, he could take no other action. The order of action resolution would ensure casters often did get hit while attempting to cast a spell. In 3e, casters only got hit typically if the opponent held an action to counter them, which for most creatures is a losing strategy akin to being debuffed. In theory, the AoO mechanic that formalized related 1e ideas, was supposed to mean a spellcaster was vulnerable in melee, but in practice this never happened because a 5' step generally took the caster out of range without impacting casting, and it was trivially easy to use 'combat casting' to avoid drawing attacks of opportunity at all. These changes made the spellcaster much less reliant on having a meatshield in order to do anything.

3) Less conservative interpretations of spells: One thing that will strike any modern reader of the 1e rules was just how painfully spellcasters were gimped, often in surprising and unpleasant ways. Haste aged you two years every time you used it, ensuring an early death to anyone that used it often. Polymorph Self copied only the external appearance of the creature, and did not even allow you to make attacks while in the alternate form. Polymorph Other transformed the mind as well as the body of the target. Spells were often written with restrictions that would strike the modern reader as perverse. 3e designers harshly gimped spellcaster direct damage, based on well known problems with 1e spells like fireball being too powerful in 1e. But in the case of other classes of spellls, they removed almost all restrictions on their use, often without reevaluating the spell with adequate playtesting. The result was a slew of problematic shapechange, summoning, buffing and debuffing spells that had either been concealed because in 1e you just needed lightning bolt or fireball for most problems, or by their harsh drawbacks.

4) Changes in HD: One of the biggest changes is that after 10th level or so, in 1e you stopped gaining HD. This combined with the fact that fighters no longer got effectively twice the bonus from high strength and high constitution that other classes received, meant that for the first time, spellcasters could manage to acquire enough hit points to survive being one shotted by a peer foe. This was a huge change. In 1e, a M-U's had on average less than 50% of the hit points of a fighter class, and would stop gaining significant hit points at 10th level. In 3e, wizards could get the same large CON bonuses as fighters, and gained HD at every level. Since at high level, CON bonuses vastly outweighed HD in significance, it wasn't unusual to see spellcasters with 60-75% of the hit points of a fighter even before buffs. Indeed, with reduced MAD and point buy, a spellcaster might have a better CON than a fighter.

It was not necessarily considered such a problem that the Wizard outclassed the Fighter in certain important respects when the Fighter could potentially one shot kill with his Sword of Sharpness. Being such a Fighter dangled the carrot of glory and fun, so whether the game was exactly "fair" was adequately forgotten.

I have to strongly disagree with this. This theory is precisely the theory of 'balance' that 3e ultimately ended up adopting. That is, "If something is broken, it doesn't matter if something else is broken too, because if everything is broken it's balanced." And not only is that not true, but merely hitting things with a sword of sharpness because you might kill them is not balanced with the ability to temporarily change the very rules or reality.

Getting back to Celebrim's point, the DM could choose to boost the feats for the martial classes, gauging against the big spells the spellcasters are getting. Or the DM could purposefully sprinkle in "DAMN fun!" magic sword and shields and armor and bows and helms that will boost the fightery classes.

I think you are failing to understand the problem. Once again, the problem in 3e isn't that mainly that fighters aren't good enough at hitting things with sticks, so giving them bigger sticks doesn't help that much. The problem is that fighters are wholly reliant on spellcasters to defend themselves from the threatens that they commonly encounter.
 

One thing that makes the 3.5 core books a must in my opinion, is that the ranger got a significant overhaul in the 3.5 PHB. It was such a boring class in 3.0, with very few cool powers.

Funny how that echoes 5th edition recently.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
The problems 3e introduced in spellcasting are numerous, and each of them by itself probably isn't wholly breaking, but collectively they are a mess:
It's been 16 years, has that mess been cleaned up much?

There is just no comparison in 3e to how good the 1e fighter's saves actually were. It was better than having three good saving throws, because to make the situation even worse, the 3e rules boosted the difficulty of making a saving throw by increasing the DC of the saving throw by the spell level.
In 4e saves were inverted to become non-AC defense, but your fighter was still likely to have REF and WILL below par, and your enemies' attack rolls scaled relentlessly. In 5e you have 4 out of 6 saves non-proficient, and DCs scale with level (not spell level, not caster level) and the caster's highest-priority stat. Ouch.

2) Changes in the ease of casting: In 1e, a spellcaster casting a spell was vulnerable. If hit, the spell would fail. While casting, he could take no other action. The order of action resolution would ensure casters often did get hit while attempting to cast a spell. In 3e, casters only got hit typically if the opponent held an action to counter them, which for most creatures is a losing strategy akin to being debuffed. In theory, the AoO mechanic was supposed to mean a spellcaster was vulnerable in melee, but in practice this never happened because a 5' step generally took the caster out of range without impacting casting, and it was trivially easy to use 'combat casting' to avoid drawing attacks of opportunity at all. These changes made the spellcaster much less reliant on having a meatshield in order to do anything.
4e didn't put much of that back. You got AoOs for casting range/area spells in melee, but they weren't spoiled or lost unless you were dropped outright. 5e has no AoO, no penalty of any kind for most spells cast in melee.

3) Less conservative interpretations of spells: 1e Spells were often written with restrictions that would strike the modern reader as perverse. 3e removed almost all restrictions on their use, result was a slew of problematic shapechange, summoning, buffing and debuffing spells that had either been concealed because in 1e you just needed lightning bolt or fireball for most problems, or by their harsh drawbacks.
OK, here there have been changes. 4e tightened spell (and other class and monster power, features, trait etc) descriptions considerably making them pretty clear for the most part. 5e obviously undid most of that, returning to natural language, but not as restrictive as 1e (nor quite as open to wild abuse).

4) Changes in HD: One of the biggest changes is that after 10th level or so, in 1e you stopped gaining HD. This combined with the fact that fighters no longer got effectively twice the bonus from high strength and high constitution that other classes received, meant that for the first time, spellcasters could manage to acquire enough hit points to survive being one shotted by a peer foe.
Actually, a peer foe could pretty nearly one-shot even a fighter or barbarian or the like - if 'one shot' is a full attack routine, especially. But the point stands, HD every level stacks up CON mod like crazy and you get insane hps in 3.x compared to 1e. How's it been since? Well, 4e did away with the dice but gave you hps, but not CON mod every level, so everyone got pretty tough, eventually. Defenders tended to have half-again the hps of controllers. But, then, peer foes couldn't easily one-shot anyone (a same-level MM3 Lurker might easily bloody a PC in one shot). 5e is right back to HD & CON mod ever single level.
 

Greenfield

Adventurer
If I may remark: In my experience. the scaling of attacks by enemies in 4e was an illusion. Everyone's attacks scaled in 4e, a +1 every two levels. Everyone's defenses ("Saves" in other words) also scaled at exactly the same rate. So as characters advanced, their numbers got bigger, but the target numbers scaled at exactly the same rate, since the adversaries were (presumably) advancing at a similar rate.
 

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