Issues with Polymorph Wildshape and Shapechange

[nwn_deadman]

When you take on the new form you lose all of your own physical attributes STR DEX and CON

Now, if you take level increases to these scores, then they are considered BASE from then on...

Also if you read a Manual, the increase to these scores, then these area also considered to be BASE from then on...

Since you LOSE all of your OWN physical attributes and GAIN all of those of the ASSUMED form, you would not get to ADD these increases to the new score...

Seems to me that people tend to overlook this and make mistakes in thier quest for the most UBER characters that they can make...

Uberness is fine, ESPECIALLY when they FOLLOW the rules AND would generally be acceptable to play in a fair and reasonable campaign...

Do the rules support this in your opinion, elaborate...

What people seem to post a lot about this as this is one of the neatest things in D&D...

 

[kreynolds]

Since you LOSE all of your OWN physical attributes and GAIN all of those of the ASSUMED form, you would not get to ADD these increases to the new score...

Gotta disagree with ya'. Somebody else might feel like elaborating, but I think it's obvious, so I won't. Besides, they can probably phrase it better than I can.

 

[Caliban]

Re: Re: Issues with Polymorph Wildshape and Shapechange

Gotta disagree with ya'. Somebody else might feel like elaborating, but I think it's obvious, so I won't. Besides, they can probably phrase it better than I can.

Exatly what are you disagreeing with? What he says is correct, as far as I can tell.

When you polymorph into another form, you assume the physical stats of the new form. Any level based increases to your own stats won't apply to the new forms physical stats (unless they are from spells or magic items that the new form can use).

I don't think inherent bonuses from wishes/tomes would apply either, but that's a little more iffy.

 

[kreynolds]

Re: Re: Re: Issues with Polymorph Wildshape and Shapechange

I don't think inherent bonuses from wishes/tomes would apply either, but that's a little more iffy.

The inherent bonus is what I disagree with. It seems to me that they would carry over. Pretty worthless for such a massive amount of money, know what I mean? Besides, that's why inherent bonuses are so expensive...they stack with everything. Not only that, they are applied from the bottom up. You have a base score, then inherent, then add everything else. Inherent ability bonuses from Tomes or Wish are not magical, don't go away in an antimagic field, and can't be dispelled. See where I'm going with this?

 

[Caliban]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Issues with Polymorph Wildshape and Shapechange

The inherent bonus is what I disagree with. It seems to me that they would carry over. Pretty worthless for such a massive amount of money, know what I mean? Besides, that's why inherent bonuses are so expensive...they stack with everything. Not only that, they are applied from the bottom up. You have a base score, then inherent, then add everything else. Inherent ability bonuses from Tomes or Wish are not magical, don't go away in an antimagic field, and can't be dispelled. See where I'm going with this?

I'm on the fence about the inherent bonuses. They may very well still apply, since they are usually noted seperately from your base state.

The level based increases to physical stats definitely wouldn't apply after you have been polymorphed, because they increase your base score, and your base physical scores are replaced by the physical stat of the new form.

 

[kreynolds]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Issues with Polymorph Wildshape and Shapechange

The level based increases to physical stats definitely wouldn't apply after you have been polymorphed, because they increase your base score, and your base physical scores are replaced by the physical stat of the new form.

I think the level based score increases would apply as well. Remember, the increases in ability scores you get from leveling are not considered a bonus in any way. It is simply a score increase, so stacking doesn't even become an issue.

 

[Caliban]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Issues with Polymorph Wildshape and Shapechange

I think the level based score increases would apply as well. Remember, the increases in ability scores you get from leveling are not considered a bonus in any way. It is simply a score increase, so stacking doesn't even become an issue.

Exactly. It's not a bonus, it's an actual change to your stat. And your stat is replaced by that of the new form. There is absolutely no question about this, level increases to physical stats won't increase the stat of your new form in any way.

Inherent bonuses are a different issue.

 

[kreynolds]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Issues with Polymorph Wildshape and Shapechange

Exactly. It's not a bonus, it's an actual change to your stat. And your stat is replaced by that of the new form. There is absolutely no question about this, level increases to physical stats won't increase the stat of your new form in any way.

Inherent bonuses are a different issue.

Since you put it that way, it makes sense. Well, at least the players didn't get totally screwed by losing their inherent bonuses.

 

[nwn_deadman]

“Inherent bonuses are a different issue.”

The only reason that Inherent bonuses are listed is because these scores must be tracked.

Lets say a long term NPC wishes to raise his or her stat?

Already had a tome +3 then it would take a tome +4 or better to change that stat.

Level increases do not have to be traced in this way, but they might be listed anyway, here is why... Negative Energy Drain/Level Losses.

Anyway, look at it like this...

The reason that ability score increases such as inherent and level score increases should not be added when you polymorph is the very reason that they are NOT Dispel-able. They are permanent and thus should be CONSIDERED as such.

Magic from a +6 item or a buff spell will stack because you always take these off. Thus they are not permanent.

 

[nwn_deadman]

I have a really easy way to check this...

Look for any official wotc module that has someone in there polymorpehd or shapechanged and see what the statblock looks like.

That should be official enough...

Someone else used this in a post recently to illustrate a point that was "iffy"

Then we can all move on to another topic...