Issues with Summon Monster/Summon Nature's Ally (2004 Thread)

[CPXB]

Everyone has made some good points. Not every character can be a fighter, but a party of 4 fighters would get slaughtered. Having "a support role" is NOT a bad thing, nor does it have to be your only role. A good DM can design a game so that every character's strengths are given a chance to shine.

The character classes in this game have been heavily tested for "balance," and I agree with those who maintain that they are. If you feel your character is underpowered, then you are probably not being given / taking advantage of opportunities for playing up your strengths. Whether that's something you need to think about or something you should talk to your DM about is germane to that situation. In this case, it may be a little of both.

But it just seems to both me and my DM that to make a monk shine you have to work a touch overtime at it. Sure, situations can be contrived to make the monk more useful, but it does mean essentially twisting the meaning of verisimilitude until it squeals some (at least in the game as established).

As a very serious question -- do you know the criteria for the balance? I mean, when the WOTC guys were playtesting and balancing the monk were they specifically saying "Oh, this is going to be a supporting character" and thus balanced it to be a supporting character? Because I don't think the class, as read, really suggest that the class is supporting. I think the class is pretty piss poor at supporting, actually, hehe.

 

[Thanee]

There is a simple solution to your problem. If you do not like the monk, then do not play one!

There are several other classes to choose from.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Will]

Thank you for remaining calm, CPXB. I hope I haven't come across as rude, given I know how complete disagreement on specific points can look.

I still think monks are an often overlooked, solid scout, but you have a good point about rangers and two-weapon fighting/rapid shot.

I will admit, I'd be much happier if monks had fewer toys (specials) and good BAB. I'd say, drop Slow Fall and, oh, 5-6 other specials in exchange, and I'd be a happy camper.

The healing power of paladins is, IMO, not all that big a deal. A single guy with a CLW wand can do as much or more. That's a judgment call, but while a paladin's healing has been handy, I've never seen it play an important role in games I've run/played.

As for the mount and spells... er, again, in my experiences, those have minimal impact on a game. Spells in particular.

For what it's worth, it's not just the monk that is affected by DM choices. All classes are.

For example, the flexibility of a wizard falls flat when encounters tend to be of a specific type. Then the sorcerer becomes most useful, because she can learn the spells that are most often relevant. In a game where things vary immensely, the wizard pulls ahead.

Lots of dungeon crawls can reduce the power of rangers, druids (though not as much), and those with a mounted combat focus. In one game, I think our paladin got to use a full mounted charge twice in 2-3 realtime years.

In the same game, I'm an archer-rogue with rapidshot. Our DM throws singular, powerful opponents (because otherwise 'they die too damn fast'). This made my focus... not so useful, because rapid attacks were more likely to miss. Then I buffed outrageously (cohort wizard, bracers of archery, boost of haste 3.0, etc), and finally got nasty.

Then there's simple things like the rogues in games where nothing takes critical hits.

For every character class, there's a situation where a player is thinking his class is broken.

 

[Plane Sailing]

You're quite right about the sling of course - my eyes glazed after reading specially made composite shortbow and composite longbow

Shuriken though. That is where the fu is

 

[Plane Sailing]

As a very serious question -- do you know the criteria for the balance?

The criteria for balance was pretty much "equal fun to play across 20 levels".

This doesn't mean equal ability in combat, or equal at any particular task; rather it means that as long as the DM doesn't set things up (inadvertently) to screw particular classes and ensures that everyone gets a chance to shine, then all classes can have fun.

I think that broadly speaking this is true (except for 2nd level of sorcerer )

Cheers

 

[Coredump]

How much would it change your numbers with all of those buffs and the new augmented summoning? +4str/+4con help out quite a bit, especially with 5 attacks!

Because I am a math geek, and trying to avoid real work....

Assuming that the druid has spent 2 of the three feats for aug summ, and assuming the bard is doing nothing but singing to help with the attack. Then the chance gets believable. There are too many variables to make it worthwhile, but based on limited calculations, I would estimate 15-20%. If you want to factor in the chance for a successful wolf hit/trip, it gets to 5-10%

That is *half* the chance for the monk to hit *and* stun the giant. (15%)


The con bonus doesn't do much to prolong the life of the animals. They should still die to 2-3 attacks assuming average damage. Including AoO, that is one round per animal. (And not including any PA damage)


edit: removed uneccesary statement

 

[Will]

One big element of balance is 'a mixture of fighting situations, several combats a day.' Actually, there's a description in the DMG... basically, a few low level encounters, some moderate ones, and then a tough capper.

It was also expected, I think, that you'd often fight multiple opponents, which is another area where a monk can shine.

Oh, and regarding mobility... mobility doesn't mean you 'leave the party behind.' It means things like getting flank quickly, or distracting an opponent while the party deals with other targets. It means getting around the cover the enemy archers are using, and so forth.

Support is a role hopefully _everyone_ engages in. A fighter getting flank with another person, that's support. Flanking an opponent with the rogue - even better.

 

[CPXB]

Thank you for remaining calm, CPXB. I hope I haven't come across as rude, given I know how complete disagreement on specific points can look.

I still think monks are an often overlooked, solid scout, but you have a good point about rangers and two-weapon fighting/rapid shot.

I will admit, I'd be much happier if monks had fewer toys (specials) and good BAB. I'd say, drop Slow Fall and, oh, 5-6 other specials in exchange, and I'd be a happy camper.

The healing power of paladins is, IMO, not all that big a deal. A single guy with a CLW wand can do as much or more. That's a judgment call, but while a paladin's healing has been handy, I've never seen it play an important role in games I've run/played.

As for the mount and spells... er, again, in my experiences, those have minimal impact on a game. Spells in particular.

For what it's worth, it's not just the monk that is affected by DM choices. All classes are.

For example, the flexibility of a wizard falls flat when encounters tend to be of a specific type. Then the sorcerer becomes most useful, because she can learn the spells that are most often relevant. In a game where things vary immensely, the wizard pulls ahead.

Lots of dungeon crawls can reduce the power of rangers, druids (though not as much), and those with a mounted combat focus. In one game, I think our paladin got to use a full mounted charge twice in 2-3 realtime years.

In the same game, I'm an archer-rogue with rapidshot. Our DM throws singular, powerful opponents (because otherwise 'they die too damn fast'). This made my focus... not so useful, because rapid attacks were more likely to miss. Then I buffed outrageously (cohort wizard, bracers of archery, boost of haste 3.0, etc), and finally got nasty.

Then there's simple things like the rogues in games where nothing takes critical hits.

For every character class, there's a situation where a player is thinking his class is broken.

You haven't done anything to take offense. I mean, disagreement is something I can handle. It's a game, after all. But you've been polite about it, which is cool with me.

Though my posts haven't been emphasizing it -- probably because I am doing a fair bit of bellyaching and I'm in a nasty mood because of a nasty cold, hehe -- the way the DM is going to handle it is by adapting the game, some. We were talking and she mentioned that in the CR 6 range there were some things with special abilities that would mess with the druid and sorcerer instead of the monk (in particular the game has been loaded with critters that either have good Fort saves or undead, which are immune to stunning). She told me that given the fact that she does only intend to run one fight a session, generally, that it is fair to plan for the magicians rather than just looking at raw CR because if we're doing one fight a day, basically, it does mean that the spellcasters have zero reason not to shoot their whole wad every fight.

Furthermore, we are going to go through the monk class and cut out what we consider to be the chaff to, while keeping at game balance, give the monk more direct melee ability because, clearly, I want it. Right now, I think we're gonna be cutting out still mind (plusses on my monk's best save? yeah, right, hehe), slow fall (nice when it comes up, but it doesn't really often come up and I'd rather just hit harder, hehe) and purity of body (also nice, but since the game is low on plagues the only diseases we encounter will be supernatural, effectively) and give me something to make up for this and make my character a more effective front line fighter 'cause that's clearly where I want to be.

So, belly aching aside, this thread has been massively useful. So really, to everyone, thanks!

 

[tensen]

Don't worry.. it will change quickly.
At 9th level.. my druid looks at things the other way.. my summoned critters get crushed by the more powerful giants.. and the monk sits there flurrying away at the giant. The advatnage is.. my critters suck up the attacks that would have put the monk down quicker.

 

[Will]

Oh, something I think I forgot to mention... area dispels are your (well, the DM's) friend.

I had a player practically fill a room with summoned creatures. I despaired, then noted... hey, dispel...

ZOOP. No more summoned critters.

(Area dispel: Check against each critter in range. If they fail, POOF)

I know the DM wants to avoid spellcasters, but maybe a giant has a wand of dispel or something.