Issues with Summon Monster/Summon Nature's Ally (2004 Thread)

[CPXB]

*points out that my problem was solved about a page back*

You can stop selling the class. Me and the DM made a few simple revisions based on the needs of our particular game -- such as the fact that my character *is* the primary melee fighter -- involving getting rid of six class abilities and replacing them with some feats. The DM is aware that the creatures she selected to have fight us are part of the problem (not to mention the spellcasters being able to get away with dropping their wads all at onc); she'll work on it and has ideas.

Really. Probably solved.

And, guys, really, thank you. As a group y'all have been wicked helpful.

 

[kigmatzomat]

IMO, 3.5 monks are easier to play than 3.0 just because you get to choose a few more specials to tailor your character.

From experience, a low (1-5th) level monk does just fine. At about 6th level they start running into an AC/hp wall where they have to fight using group tactics as compared to the "meat shield" tactic of barbarians and heavy-armor fighters. Monks increase others strength while fighters just chunk into a hole for the most part.

By 6th they should generally have decided on a style (grappler, spring-attacker, or meleer) and begun down the path. Grapplers need high strength and feats like Closequarters Fighting and Clever Wrestling. Springattackers are obvious tumble-bums that only get one shot in per round but do it with minimal chance of damage. The Meleer is close to your typical fighter and really should be a dex-junky with weapon finesse (unarmed) to concentrated AC bonuses and attack bonuses in one place.

There is a weird period from 6-10th level where the campaign's style can have a big impact on how effective the monk is. Sometimes no big deal, others the monk gets a little weak as his BAB penalties become more evident and opponents BAB skyrocket with the addition of HD.

IMC there's a 15th level monk. He's downright impressive. He does a bit less damage than the scimitar-specialized dervish fighter but he can generally get more attacks by reaching a fight first. Spells flicker off of him more than 50% of the time and his saves + evasion mean the ones that get through do little damage. Immunity to poison has let him walk through the innards of a tendriculous while the fighter was sweating bullets and praying his Fort save didn't abandon him.

We've learned that you generally take less damage inside a creature than outside so when the monk gets engulfed he gets to take his full attack sequence with fewer consequences. And thanks to CQF and CW he's much harder to grapple than might be anticipated. It still happens regularly, but he gets in a few extra licks in the process.

On the flip side of grappling, it's a great maneuver to try on the 3rd and 4th attacks. By dint of being a touch attack its easy to make and the BAB+strength roll doesn't care *what* attack your on. Might as well get in a few solid hits and then try for the grab to make life easier on your friends.

The monk does have an issue with having fewer HPs than the fighter and less AC (when the fighter uses expertise) but he can generally get to a safe place to use his self-heal or leap to the cleric easier than the fighter can. There's nothing like using spring-attack to hit some guy 20' infront of you and then run 60' back to get some healin' from the cleric.

 

[Will]

There is some debate about whether grapple cares what attack you're on...

Actually, what I want to try is a meleer with a glaive. Mmm. Someone steps in? AoO _and_ you have unarmed attacks...

 

[Stalker0]

*points out that my problem was solved about a page back*

Too late, the thread has a life of its own now

I think your solution is a good one. Considering the one encounter a day, your spellcasters are going to be more powerful than is normally intended, so a little beefing up for you isn't so bad.

 

[jgsugden]

Too late, the thread has a life of its own now

I think your solution is a good one. Considering the one encounter a day, your spellcasters are going to be more powerful than is normally intended, so a little beefing up for you isn't so bad.

The point I was making is that you may be 'solving' the wrong things. Beefing up the monk may cause other problems when encounters go another way ...

 

[CPXB]

There is some debate about whether grapple cares what attack you're on...

Actually, what I want to try is a meleer with a glaive. Mmm. Someone steps in? AoO _and_ you have unarmed attacks...

Yeah, I'm seriously thinking about this, too. Get the AOO, hit once with the unarmed, ninja flip away, wash, rinse, repeat.

 

[Scion]

Yeah, I'm seriously thinking about this, too. Get the AOO, hit once with the unarmed, ninja flip away, wash, rinse, repeat.

Isnt there some feat or skill or something that allows you to move 10' with the 5' step? Maybe it is an item..hmm..

Anyway though, then they would move up, you get aoo. Trip is good. Then you full attack with your monk stuff, and then 10' step away Eat that!

 

[CPXB]

The point I was making is that you may be 'solving' the wrong things. Beefing up the monk may cause other problems when encounters go another way ...

Actually, we were looking through Unearthed Arcana and their suggestions on how to swap out class features for other things, in this case a few more feats. As in, at this level, two more class feats and my C is loosing a fair bit such as the immunity to non-magical diseases, slow fall and still mind.

Somehow I don't think that two feats is gonna cause the door to swing all the way 'round, again.

 

[CPXB]

Isnt there some feat or skill or something that allows you to move 10' with the 5' step? Maybe it is an item..hmm..

Anyway though, then they would move up, you get aoo. Trip is good. Then you full attack with your monk stuff, and then 10' step away Eat that!

Dood! That would be bombage if it was, but I don't know of one.

 

[Sereg]

Well

What it comes down to, is this...

You're comparing arguably the strongest class in 3.5 to the weakest. Its not gonna be pretty. I've played monks on and off since 3.0, and almost all fail horribly. The one's that almost kept up with other players invariably used external shots in the arm like insane stats + monstrous race, extensive third party material, or the like. Monks synergy is all about defense, and D&D is an offensive game.

This isn't just theoretical: I've played at least 15+ monks from all levels, in all types of campaigns, with all GM's. Yes, he was more valued in a campaign with lots of spellcasters. No, he still wasn't even close to the MvP.

I really emphasize with you here, because in my CURRENT campaign (level 15-17, Forgotten Realms, 3.5), I'm playing a monk. I've designed him to be a battle monk, and have gone seriously all out with cheese because I know how weak melee are, let alone monks, at level 15+. To break it down, we're talking wisdom to hit three times, wisdom to damage twice, untouchable ac, that sort of thing. As min maxed as I could make him. And guess what?

THE DRUID WITH BAD STATS AND NO PRCS IS EQUALLY STRONG TO STRONGER MOST BATTLES AND INFINITLY MORE USEFUL TO THE PARTY.

Really, think about that for a moment. A UTTERLY non min-maxed druid, played by a relative newbie to D&D / RPG strategies, is at the very least equal to the most ludicriously overpowered twinked "I-am-Neo" monk WotC material could produce.

It's an uphill battle as any fighter, against a druid. A low level monk is just laughable. The irony here is, when you get to higher levels (14+), even a fighter who might have competed from 4-10 is going to start showing strain compared to a druid.


If you desire to continue playing a monk, I'd be happy to help you make him stronger using WotC material, but I'd counsel you to not fight an uphill battle, and change to a spellcaster or barbarian/paladin/prc'ed hybrid, and don't look back.



Sereg