Issues with Summon Monster/Summon Nature's Ally (2004 Thread)

[Sereg]

Oh and

I wanted to address this briefly:

Anyways, as others have said, if the druid expends like half her daily spells in a combat, she ought to outshine everyone else. That's completely ok

No, this is NOT completely ok. THIS, my friends, is whats wrong with D&D for fighter types. Hello, a druid can dominate (according to this logic) two out of the three combats in a day, but its ok because he's out of spells?

Can a monk wake up and decide he is going to foregoe his (nonexistant) combat power for today in exchange for utility, problem circumventing, healing, wildshape, and a full spell list? I THINK NOT. The double standard here is very, very stupid, and its driven driving fighting types into the hands of newbies and masochists.

First, high level casters *don't* run out of spells, even dominating 3+ combats a day. Secondly, even if they DID run out, its STILL not ok.

Until my level 13 fighter can wake up and decide, hey, I think i'll scry and then transport the party to an island in the middle of the sea, and while i'm at it I'll make use of my full spell list for the day (but oh, I can't do any combat today, or maby just a little), then its ok for fighters to suck in fights as much as they do, since everyone would have the same options.

Summary:

#1 Fighter types do not fight well enough to make up their total lack of options and powers casters gain via spells.

#2 Fighter types generally have the WORST defense in the game, instead of the best. With moderate to high stats, heavy armor is a detriment, not a benefit. Furthermore, the more fighterish you get (ranger-->barb-->fighter), the WORSE your saving throws get. Fighters need the BEST defense, not the worst. Fighting is ALL they have.

#3 Instead of dictating the outcomes of combats, fighters are rarely more than equal to, and often LESS THAN, a pure caster or hybrid in combats.


Sereg

 

[jgsugden]

Dood! That would be bombage if it was, but I don't know of one.

Oriental Adventures says that tumble may be used (DC35 I think) to adjust 10' rather than 5'. My epic rogue/barbarian does it all the time ...

 

[jgsugden]

No, this is NOT completely ok. THIS, my friends, is whats wrong with D&D for fighter types. Hello, a druid can dominate (according to this logic) two out of the three combats in a day, but its ok because he's out of spells?

In a good game, yes.

First, high level casters *don't* run out of spells, even dominating 3+ combats a day. Secondly, even if they DID run out, its STILL not ok.

Run completely out of spells? No. Run out of their high level spells? Yes. Those are the spells that make most of the impact. The other stuff gives them something to do, but it is rarely important in a combat.

Spellcasters start off strong and then wane in power. The melee classes tend to be balanced in power (as long as they're not helpless) throughout the adventure. If the DM runs games where the PCs never fight when low on resources, the spellcasters are relatively more powerful than the fighters. *It is up to the DM to manage this aspect of the game*. The DM needs to change the pace every once in a while if the spellcasters are dominating every combat and then resting before continuing on in the adventure.

If you're finding that your spellcasters are too powerful on a regular basis, here are a few adventure ideas that can help:

* The PCs must venture onto the demi-plane of nightmares to retrieve a lost artifact needed to stop an ancient threat that will arrive in two days. The plane may only be entered at midnight (though you can leave it anytime). The PCs will need to go to the plane and get as far as possible in their adventure before resting - once - and returning the following night. Spellcasters will need to ration their spells. Fighter types will need to pack extra healing materials. It creates a whole new dynamic adventure.

* The PCs are being hunted by a group of assassins that *knows* that resting will allow the spellcasters to regain spells. Not only will the spellcasters be low on spells by the end of the day, the assassins will pick a time when they're low on spells to launch their attack (perhaps after the PCs investigate a small dungeon that the assassins reveal to them so that the PCs will retrieve an item that they can not obtain). The assassins will hound them until either the PCs or the assassins are destroyed, making rest hard, if not impossible. A DM will have to be careful to keep this adventure fun for the spellcasters.

* A clever DM of mine had an adventure where the PCs had to collect 13 items from 13 spots across the world within 24 hours. That required almost all of our higher level spells for transporation and relocation, so we had to resort to lower level spells and relying upon the fighter types to best the guardians of the items.

* Similar to an idea above, a demon once assaulted the party with an artifact that stole their ability to sleep. Without it, they'd become, tired, then exhausted and then eventually go insane. The PCs had to track down the great monster and defeat it before they were destroyed by lack of sleep.

 

[Camarath]

Isnt there some feat or skill or something that allows you to move 10' with the 5' step? Maybe it is an item..hmm..

Sparring Dummy of the Master from Arms and and Equipment Guide.

 

[Sereg]

jgsugden

Those are all interesting and valid adventures, but there's a point I'd like to make here, that I believe you'll agree with me on:

When a large part of the *core* rules is only balanced through *specifically targeting it, due to being so powerful*, its not balanced.

Yes, sometimes you can have adventures with tight time constraints. MOST of the time, Rope trick and Mords Mansion, not to mention the teleport spells, mean resting is a non issue.

Furthermore, I daresay if the caster's aren't getting spells, the melee aren't exactly going to be holding up long. Hitpoints are very, very finite things in high level D&D, and fighters lose them at alarming rates against most foes.

The bottom line is, fighter types are limited in power, utterly reliant on casters at high levels, or on magic items produced by said casters. Casters determine the pace of the encounter, the adventure, the game. Casters can create reactions, rather than simply reacting to the world, and since we know offense is better than defense in D&D by a large margin, Casters therefore have the power.

Yes, you can artifically constrain that power, but that doesn't mean there isn't a balance issue in the core of the system.

Show me a wizard without a spellbook who is crippled, i'll show you a fighter without items who's not one fifteith as strong as the cleric or sorceror who also lost his items. You can create specific situations to prove any point: My test is this. Run a gammet of adventures of various types, not attempting to cater to any one power group (all undead when you're trying to prove rogues suck). You'll see my issue with casters.

Sereg

ps. This isn't theoretical: Even in your examples casters held the power, and without them melee would either outright fail, or have almost no chance. My beafs with the system come from immense gameplay under all gm's, so please don't bring out specific examples, lets talk standard adventures with core wealth, rules, magic items. Casters vs fighters (20 bab types). Can you really claim there is any balance whatsoever?

 

[smetzger]

What it comes down to, is this...

You're comparing arguably the strongest class in 3.5 to the weakest. Its not gonna be pretty. I've played monks on and off since 3.0, and almost all fail horribly. The one's that almost kept up with other players invariably used external shots in the arm like insane stats + monstrous race, extensive third party material, or the like. Monks synergy is all about defense, and D&D is an offensive game.

Yes, I also believe the Druid is the most powerful class in 3.5. He can shapechange, can heal, can cast decent damaging spells, has decent skill points, and has the best summoning spells.

The summon natures ally is much more powerful than summon monster. I run a game in which the players just turned 13th level, the Druid can now summon a greater elemental. You say its only a CR9 critter so what. But they have DR10/-, against a foe without spells these guys are quite capable.

 

[Tatsukun]

Sparring Dummy of the Master from Arms and and Equipment Guide.

The Arms & Equipment guide has feats? Where?
I am thumbing through mine, and I don't see anything of the sort (but I'm kind-a stupid).

-Tatsu

 

[Will]

Sereg... hit points aren't an issue if you have even a few minutes downtime. Wands of CLW can easily top off a party, if need be. You don't have that option with spells.

The point is that in the normal course of play, it is expected that sometimes there is a time pressure, sometimes you can't easily rest whenever you feel like, and sometimes a horde of enemy hit you.

That's normal, and the game is designed around that.

If the only thing you do is hordes of goblins, or hit and run thieves in tunnels, or giants in open fields, or whatever, then it is not surprising that one character type will benefit.

I've seen spellcaster NPCs get torn to ribbons by nonspellcasters.


Though I will say that I think druids are one of the most powerful classes now, given a range of ability. However, they have to be played very well to make the most of that ability. In the case of CPXB, I think the advantage is partially situational, and I also suspect the DM didn't know how to fully deal with the druid.

Which is fine, I've torn my eyebrows out trying to deal with my druid (and the paladin, and the cleric, and the thief-wizard, and the wizard, and the...)

DMing is tricky.

 

[jgsugden]

Sereg

Let me put it this way: The style of the campaign is significant.

I've played with 11 different DMs since 3.0 came out (in addition to the games I've run). I can tell you with greater confidence that the issues you describe - regarding spellcasters being too strong all the time - is a factor of campaign style, not a factor of all D&D games. If the DM runs games where the PCs can rest after every battle, you have a different situation than if they can rarely rest.

I provided the examples above to help DMs see the 'other side' if they're experiencing the 'overpowered spellcaster' issues. Not as a step that neds to be taken to balance a game.

Unless they completely gut the entire spellcasting system and rebuild it from scratch, you're going to have to deal with this problem via a campaign design approach. If not, you'll suffer. It is up to you.

 

[beaver1024]

I keep seeing phrase "The DM has to tailor his campaign to make your character shine". This is hauntingly similar to the 2e mantra "Demi-humans are reviled that's why they get all their super abilites above humans. DMs need to tailor their campaigns for that".

To quote the Simpons:
Announcer: We now return to "Knightboat: the Crime-Solving Boat".
Michael: Faster, Knightboat! We gotta catch those starfish poachers.
Knightboat: You don't have to yell, Michael, I'm all around you.
Michael: Oh, no! They're headed for land. We'll never catch them now.
Knightboat: Incorrect: look! A canal.
Homer: Go, Knightboat, go!
Bart: Oh, every week there's a canal.
Lisa: Or an inlet.
Bart: Or a fjord.
Homer: Quiet! I will not hear another word against the boat.