It goes to show you can't please everbody!

[MGibster]

In Cyberpunk 2020, published in 1991, there were a myriad of brand name firearms you could purchase. Your character might buy a cheap piece of junk pistol like the Dai Lung Cybermag 15 or spend a few more eddies for a Sternmeyer Type 35 which was more reliable. In Cyberpunk Red, you just pick the pistol type (medium, heavy, or very heavy) and decide whether it's poor, standard, or of excellent quality. The book gives you some brand names to associate with each quality level, but it's not the same. It's not as fun.

On the flip side, you tended to see PCs selecte the same weapons. They weren't getting a POS Dai Lung they were purchasing a reliable Sternmeyer instead. And D&D is kind of like that, there are all sorts of weapons and armor you don't see players picking all that often for a variety of reasons. They'll typically pick the ones that give them the most bang for the buck.

 

[Bill Zebub]

In Cyberpunk 2020, published in 1991, there were a myriad of brand name firearms you could purchase. Your character might buy a cheap piece of junk pistol like the Dai Lung Cybermag 15 or spend a few more eddies for a Sternmeyer Type 35 which was more reliable. In Cyberpunk Red, you just pick the pistol type (medium, heavy, or very heavy) and decide whether it's poor, standard, or of excellent quality. The book gives you some brand names to associate with each quality level, but it's not the same. It's not as fun.

On the flip side, you tended to see PCs selecte the same weapons. They weren't getting a POS Dai Lung they were purchasing a reliable Sternmeyer instead. And D&D is kind of like that, there are all sorts of weapons and armor you don't see players picking all that often for a variety of reasons. They'll typically pick the ones that give them the most bang for the buck.

The problem with D&D armor is that there’s no meaningful trade-offs (possible sorta exception is disadvantage on stealth). Better armor is better, and you wear the best armor that you both can afford and have proficiency in. There’s no real decision.

 

[MGibster]

The problem with D&D armor is that there’s no meaningful trade-offs (possible sorta exception is disadvantage on stealth). Better armor is better, and you wear the best armor that you both can afford and have proficiency in. There’s no real decision.

I was all set on agreeing this was a problem, but then I thought to myself, "Is it really?" If we're going to define best amor as that which provides the superior protection, you're right, there really isn't much of a reason for a character not to take what is objectively the best armor they can both afford and use. In some games, you can't just walk around in heavy armor for no good reason. Or at least it's not socially acceptable. In D&D, the default assumption is that the PCs are wearing their armor when traveling, going to the library, or cracking open a few cold ones at the pub. Honestly, this is just one of the many D&Disms I've come to accept over the years. And if it's not the case in your game, great, but it seems to me that this would tend to favor classes that don't rely on armor for protection.

Is it a problem? Eh, it certainly makes choosing armor unintersting. Getting to the point where I could afford plate armor was a pretty big deal for me in 1st and 2nd edition, but other than that, I don't know if I ever really cared that much about making interesting decisions about armor. But then maybe I'd be more interested if it mattered?

 

[Mistwell]

I still wish some armors gave resistance to piercing damage, others to acid damage, others to fire damage, others could be taken off or put on in two rounds, others gave advantage on intimidation checks, etc.. There's more adders that could be used for different armors.

 

[Bill Zebub]

I was all set on agreeing this was a problem, but then I thought to myself, "Is it really?" If we're going to define best amor as that which provides the superior protection, you're right, there really isn't much of a reason for a character not to take what is objectively the best armor they can both afford and use. In some games, you can't just walk around in heavy armor for no good reason. Or at least it's not socially acceptable. In D&D, the default assumption is that the PCs are wearing their armor when traveling, going to the library, or cracking open a few cold ones at the pub. Honestly, this is just one of the many D&Disms I've come to accept over the years. And if it's not the case in your game, great, but it seems to me that this would tend to favor classes that don't rely on armor for protection.

Is it a problem? Eh, it certainly makes choosing armor unintersting. Getting to the point where I could afford plate armor was a pretty big deal for me in 1st and 2nd edition, but other than that, I don't know if I ever really cared that much about making interesting decisions about armor. But then maybe I'd be more interested if it mattered?

Or just have a LOT more adversaries with Heat Metal.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

I still wish some armors gave resistance to piercing damage, others to acid damage, others to fire damage, others could be taken off or put on in two rounds, others gave advantage on intimidation checks, etc.. There's more adders that could be used for different armors.

If resistance would be more granular, that'd be awesome. Or maybe go with Damage Reduction instead:

Hide Armor: Medium, AC 13+ Dex (max 2), DR: Cold 3, Acid 3. Disadvantage on Stealth.

Full plate: Heavy, AC 18, DR: 3 Slashing. Disadvantage on Stealth, Advantage on test against being forcibly moved.

 

[DEFCON 1]

What I am learning on this forum is that there is no point, however obvious, that folks won't debate.

Yes there is.

 

[mellored]

I think it could be interesting to have the heavier armors give special THP (called them armor points, to avoid be able to have both) at the start of battle, recovering at the end of the encounter if you have Mending or the relevant Tool proficiency. So its not an always on damage mitigation, but having a thick cumbersome plate on your back helps you stand against your foes a little longer than a lightly armored rogue of the same AC.

You could even base those number of Armor Points on proficiency bonus, something like 3 AP per prof. bonus for chainmail, for example.

Final Fantasy Tactics did this, but it increased max HP. Which would be easier to keep track of than armor points.

Padded: 11+Dex, increase your max HP by twice your level.

I could see it for monks and barbarians as well.
Unarmed defense: when not wearing armor, add your Wis/Con * level to your maximum hit points.

 

[Nefermandias]

This is a pretty offensive thing to say to all the 3PP designers on this forum and elsewhere. Sure, choose what you want to buy, but tearing down 3PPs isn't a good look.

His point is, we shouldn't have to rely on 3pp to have something that was advertised as part of the official books. In this case, true modularity and solid options to customize your gaming experience.

There's also the fact that some groups will never accept the inclusion of 3pp or homebrew in their campaigns and only sticks to official releases.

 

[Morrus]

His point is, we shouldn't have to rely on 3pp to have something that was advertised as part of the official books. In this case, true modularity and solid options to customize your gaming experience.

There's also the fact that some groups will never accept the inclusion of 3pp or homebrew in their campaigns and only sticks to official releases.

Yes, I understood him. But thanks.

 

[Horwath]

haha,

this is great, and describes what forums and opinions are perfectly.


Also I like @Minigiant suggestion.

If PHB table look like that, I probably would not made my thread as there would be more options and trade-ins in picking armor.

having options for all(not just medium armor) to pick between stealth and +1 AC with base armors is great idea, also with having min STR expanded to light and medium categories.

my suggestion was into simplification as most armors in PHB are just waste of print outside 1st or 2nd level and then you just need to simplified them even more so not tho bother with fiddling with them, fer extra gold cost means nothing in later levels.

to me it would be great if all armors had different max DEX, different min STR, some with stealth penalty, some with -5ft speed penalty and some minor bonuses possibly(DR 1 vs one type of B,S or P damage)

 

[overgeeked]

To be fair, sometimes its a way to replace an existing system. Even if it can be used with it.

Right? If 5E was golden there'd be zero need for A5E. That A5E exists is indicative that someone wasn't happy with how official 5E worked. You don't go through the trouble of redesigning a system and most of its subsystems because you think the original works great as is.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Right? If 5E was golden there'd be zero need for A5E. That A5E exists is indicative that someone wasn't happy with how official 5E worked. You don't go through the trouble of redesigning a system and most of its subsystems because you think the original works great as is.

But there's always going to be people who think that, no matter how a game is written. The only difference here is fandom for D&D is big enough it can support games trying to use the structure to do something very similar, whereas even other games that have problems there just aren't enough of them to support a second game because there just aren't the huge number of fans.

 

[Morrus]

Right? If 5E was golden there'd be zero need for A5E. That A5E exists is indicative that someone wasn't happy with how official 5E worked. You don't go through the trouble of redesigning a system and most of its subsystems because you think the original works great as is.

That was not our motivation for making it.

We think 5E is great. It works great for what it is. We just happen to think there are other flavours of game, and A5E is one of them.

Steak is great. But sometimes I like pizza.

 

[overgeeked]

That was not our motivation for making it.

We think 5E is great. It works great for what it is. We just happen to think there are other flavours of game, and A5E is one of them.

Steak is great. But sometimes I like pizza.

Right. Baseline 5E doesn't do what you want so you made a game that did. And, at a guess, most 3PP are much the same. They put out products for 5E that they'd like to see. But, importantly, for there to be any hope of selling books, 5E has to not actually do the thing well already. You're filling a gap in 5E. Either rules or content. If 5E was amazing in that particular thing, there'd be no need for 3PP to fill that gap. 5E is lacking this specific thing...so 3PP are there to fill that gap. 5E's great, but you need more cool monsters...so here's a dozen high-quality monster books. 5E's great, but you need more modules...so here's dozens of high-quality modules. 5E's great, but you need more detailed exploration rules...so here's a dozen high-quality books for that. Call me crazy, I'd rather 5E not be riddled with huge gaps in the first place. I shouldn't need a 3PP book to have decent exploration rules, 5E should already have them...but it doesn't...which is why there's a few dozen 3PP books covering that gap.

 

[MichaelSomething]

That was not our motivation for making it.

We think 5E is great. It works great for what it is. We just happen to think there are other flavours of game, and A5E is one of them.

Steak is great. But sometimes I like pizza.

If every pork chop was perfect, we wouldn't have hotdogs!

 

[Morrus]

Right. Baseline 5E doesn't do what you want so you made a game that did. And, at a guess, most 3PP are much the same. They put out products for 5E that they'd like to see. But, importantly, for there to be any hope of selling books, 5E has to not actually do the thing well already. You're filling a gap in 5E. Either rules or content. If 5E was amazing in that particular thing, there'd be no need for 3PP to fill that gap. 5E is lacking this specific thing...so 3PP are there to fill that gap. 5E's great, but you need more cool monsters...so here's a dozen high-quality monster books. 5E's great, but you need more modules...so here's dozens of high-quality modules. 5E's great, but you need more detailed exploration rules...so here's a dozen high-quality books for that. Call me crazy, I'd rather 5E not be riddled with huge gaps in the first place. I shouldn't need a 3PP book to have decent exploration rules, 5E should already have them...but it doesn't...which is why there's a few dozen 3PP books covering that gap.

Eh. You’re positioning it as better/worse. We see it as different. Ice cream isn’t better or worse than pizza. It’s different.

 

[overgeeked]

You’re positioning it as better/worse.

Not really. D&D 5E is marketed and sold as a Leatherman Multi-Tool but when you open it up you notice it's missing the Philip's head screwdriver, serrated blade, file, pliers, and ruler. Each sold separately. By different companies. With different standards of writing, art, layout, budgets, and sensibilities. I'm not saying 3PP are better or worse. I'm saying the thing I bought (5E) is incomplete. I get that you make money off selling the missing bits, and that's great, no complaints about you or other 3PP. All I'm saying is that 5E should be a complete game unto itself, which it is not. Clearly. Hence all the 3PP selling us the Philip's head screwdriver, serrated blade, file, pliers, and ruler. A lot of people are fine with those parts not being included and they're fine going out and buying the missing bits from 3PP. More power to them and more power to the 3PP. I'm frustrated that 5E is incomplete in the first place.

 

[Morrus]

Not really. D&D 5E is marketed and sold as a Leatherman Multi-Tool but when you open it up you notice it's missing the Philip's head screwdriver, serrated blade, file, pliers, and ruler. Each sold separately. By different companies. With different standards of writing, art, layout, budgets, and sensibilities. I'm not saying 3PP are better or worse. I'm saying the thing I bought (5E) is incomplete. I get that you make money off selling the missing bits, and that's great, no complaints about you or other 3PP. All I'm saying is that 5E should be a complete game unto itself, which it is not. Clearly. Hence all the 3PP selling us the Philip's head screwdriver, serrated blade, file, pliers, and ruler. A lot of people are fine with those parts not being included and they're fine going out and buying the missing bits from 3PP. More power to them and more power to the 3PP. I'm frustrated that 5E is incomplete in the first place.

To clarify again, that is not how we feel or our motivation for making A5E.

 

[phuong]

I'm frustrated that 5E is incomplete in the first place.

When I played 2nd edition, I thought it was fully complete at the time.
5e has sold more copies than all the other editions put together.
Your complaint comes across like a jilted teen lover who is bad mouthing an ex girlfriend with fabricated flaws.
Some people will always jealously complain though, because they are haters, not lovers.