D&D 5E It is OK for a class to be the worst

[Ruin Explorer]

If the DM asks for rolls for almost everything, exhaustion is going to be a much bigger problem. Hopefully, at least in my view, the DM doesn't do that and ascribes to the "Middle Path."

I mean basically I agree with your position re: rolls etc., and I think you explain it well here, but I just don't feel like it makes Exhaustion anything less than a massive problem.

Yes, one that can be navigated around and mitigated to an extent, but it's still quite like you just deleted your character outside of combat, for anything but no-risk tasks. Other people now need to step up and do your job, make your checks, or use Help to prevent you failing stuff (and even then, you may well fail it, because before they could use help and give you Advantage). You've given the party a limp, as it were. Yeah that happens - people die, for example, but you did it on intentionally.

In combat, one level is less of a problem but with a slightly mean DM like mean, you absolutely are going to get grappled if you have STR disadvantage and are in melee, and I can gain from it tactically, and bad things will happen after that. I mean, it's not like the Warlock doesn't Hex the biggest mob with STR disadvantage every time to try and do the same in reverse.

Re: DMs who ask for rolls for everything, well, on a sliding scale, of the DMs I currently play 4E with, including me, I'm by far the least likely to ask for a roll - I try to always avoid rolls unless failure is interesting/meaningful or the players are "fishing". The next DM is pretty similar but given to unnecessary Perception checks (passive Perception exists for a reason, people, though I think that is impacted by Disadvantage?). After that, the next DM is never unnecessary with the rolls, but quite aggressive, and not keen on letting people avoid a roll entirely with RP and the like (unless its obvious stuff that makes sense), just more likely to give Advantage. The final DM, he absolutely makes you roll for everything, multiple times, like one time on one conversation with an NPC I had to roll Persuasion 5 times in 10 sentences. I wasn't even trying to Persuade the NPC of anything, he was just rolling it like it was etiquette or something (the NPC was quite fancy, but frankly, so was my PC). Perception checks for noticing basic stuff, like the presence of NPCs in a room. I could go on. So it varies. A lot.

 

[Redwizard007]

also, you only recover ONE level of exhaustion per long rest, meaning if you go oo hard, the penalties drag on for multiple days.

Sure. And there are instances where that would be a major bummer, but after most boss fights do your players rush right into the next adventure? That's not usually my experience. A few days recovering in the tavern or temple are far more common, and easily remove 2 levels of exhaustion (unless you are playing with gritty realism.)

 

[Undrave]

The berserker deserve a fix. It is the only none magical barbarian and thus he own an exclusive niche.

The champion is ok for a dont bother character. If you want to perform play a BM. There is no real thematic difference.

the sorcerer and the ranger are more complex case. They may not under perform but may produce insatisfaction or frustration. Same thing for the elemental monk, he is not so bad, but its spells are often a second choice behind stunning strike, unless exceptional situation.

I feel like they missed an opportunity with the Champion to make it simple, but not necessarily boring. Instead of the blanket crit range they should have given it a bonus depending on your Damage type. Something like you still got the extanded crit range if you inflict piercing damage, if you inflict slash you can also 'cleave' into a different guy next to you and if you inflict bludgeoning damage you can shove with a bonus action.

Simple stuff you can decide to focus on to be a one trick pony (with furher support from feats), but you can also go a bit more 'swiss army' and be able to pick weapons to suit the situation and add a small but easy to grasp strategic decision in combat.

Many opennent? Break out the scimitars and dance into battle! Dangerous terrain? Grab the hammer and ring them around! One big tough guy? Strike him in the weakspot with your spear!

I don't think it would have been too much.

 

[iserith]

I mean basically I agree with your position re: rolls etc., and I think you explain it well here, but I just don't feel like it makes Exhaustion anything less than a massive problem.

Yes, one that can be navigated around and mitigated to an extent, but it's still quite like you just deleted your character outside of combat, for anything but no-risk tasks. Other people now need to step up and do your job, make your checks, or use Help to prevent you failing stuff (and even then, you may well fail it, because before they could use help and give you Advantage). You've given the party a limp, as it were. Yeah that happens - people die, for example, but you did it on intentionally.

That has not been my experience. For one, in an exploration or social interaction challenge, it's pretty common for players to offer to Work Together with another PC in almost any task, unless there is an opportunity cost or risk for doing so. This is true even if the lead character isn't exhausted.

In an exploration challenge, I'm likely to engage in breaking, moving, or climbing tasks and certain adventuring gear can be of use here which doesn't require my party's help or resources. In a social interaction challenge, I'm likely to be trying to figure out the truthfulness of an NPC or trying to discern his or her agenda, ideals, bonds, and flaws which may call for a Wisdom (Insight) check. I'm usually willing to accept the consequences of failing that roll. If I'm not, I have Inspiration. (I always train Insight on my "bruiser" characters.)

The character isn't missing out on much here. Still contributing meaningfully to the other two pillars in my view.

In combat, one level is less of a problem but with a slightly mean DM like mean, you absolutely are going to get grappled if you have STR disadvantage and are in melee, and I can gain from it tactically, and bad things will happen after that. I mean, it's not like the Warlock doesn't Hex the biggest mob with STR disadvantage every time to try and do the same in reverse.

While raging, it's an even roll for the exhausted berserker who is likely trained in Athletics. Most monsters aren't trained in it. I'll take my chances.

Re: DMs who ask for rolls for everything, well, on a sliding scale, of the DMs I currently play 4E with, including me, I'm by far the least likely to ask for a roll - I try to always avoid rolls unless failure is interesting/meaningful or the players are "fishing". The next DM is pretty similar but given to unnecessary Perception checks (passive Perception exists for a reason, people, though I think that is impacted by Disadvantage?). After that, the next DM is never unnecessary with the rolls, but quite aggressive, and not keen on letting people avoid a roll entirely with RP and the like (unless its obvious stuff that makes sense), just more likely to give Advantage. The final DM, he absolutely makes you roll for everything, multiple times, like one time on one conversation with an NPC I had to roll Persuasion 5 times in 10 sentences. I wasn't even trying to Persuade the NPC of anything, he was just rolling it like it was etiquette or something (the NPC was quite fancy, but frankly, so was my PC). Perception checks for noticing basic stuff, like the presence of NPCs in a room. I could go on. So it varies. A lot.

Right, and so it's good to examine the assumptions inherent in our positions and potentially acknowledge that there are too many variables to make a blanket judgment on a particular subclass.

 

[Undrave]

Sure. And there are instances where that would be a major bummer, but after most boss fights do your players rush right into the next adventure? That's not usually my experience. A few days recovering in the tavern or temple are far more common, and easily remove 2 levels of exhaustion (unless you are playing with gritty realism.)

Well then how do you KNOW it's a boss fight? Does the background music change? Furthermore, this mean that outside of that one final confrontation day, you have a major class feature that's the center of your character only usable once per day.

L1 Exhaustion means you're even more useless outside of combat
L2 means you have trouble reaching melee range on enemies, which could be a ton of problem for the squishies
And L3 makes you basically a sitting duck.

And you need to spend a Bonus Action to enter your rage so you can't use that bonus action attack on your first turn of rage.

And Intimidating Presence is a garbage ability that relies on your Charisma, something you have no other use for, wastes your action if you're trying to do anything else and only affects ONE creature.

The question though is not 'is exhaustion that bad'... but rather: do you really gain anything worthwhile from this class compared to a Totem Barbarian? Heck, do you even gain enough DPS from Frenzy that using either Dual Wielder or Polearm Mastery wouldn't be just as good?

Totem Barbarians get stuff that just HAPPEN automatically when they rage, no ressource to manage beyond that AND they get some fun fluffy rituals to play with. It's an infinitely more interesting subclass that isn't really that much more complicated.

 

[iserith]

do you really gain anything worthwhile from this class compared to a Totem Barbarian?

Yes, the ability to be smug about having played a berserker and knowing all the haters are wrong.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Totem Barbarians get stuff that just HAPPEN automatically when they rage, no ressource to manage beyond that AND they get some fun fluffy rituals to play with. It's an infinitely more interesting subclass that isn't really that much more complicated.

Whilst I sorta-agree, it should be noted that a couple of the totems are really not great, even compared to the issues with Berserker.

 

[Redwizard007]

Well then how do you KNOW it's a boss fight? Does the background music change? Furthermore, this mean that outside of that one final confrontation day, you have a major class feature that's the center of your character only usable once per day.

L1 Exhaustion means you're even more useless outside of combat
L2 means you have trouble reaching melee range on enemies, which could be a ton of problem for the squishies
And L3 makes you basically a sitting duck.

And you need to spend a Bonus Action to enter your rage so you can't use that bonus action attack on your first turn of rage.

And Intimidating Presence is a garbage ability that relies on your Charisma, something you have no other use for, wastes your action if you're trying to do anything else and only affects ONE creature.

The question though is not 'is exhaustion that bad'... but rather: do you really gain anything worthwhile from this class compared to a Totem Barbarian? Heck, do you even gain enough DPS from Frenzy that using either Dual Wielder or Polearm Mastery wouldn't be just as good?

Totem Barbarians get stuff that just HAPPEN automatically when they rage, no ressource to manage beyond that AND they get some fun fluffy rituals to play with. It's an infinitely more interesting subclass that isn't really that much more complicated.

1. What do you mean by "even more usless outside of combat?" I have rebuttals, but don't want to put words in your mouth.

2. The boss fight is the one I was hired (or whatever) to do. Slay whatever thing was doing the bad. Etc. If I missfire it means I end the adventure with 2 levels of exhaustion instead of 3. Maybe 3 levels if I'm drinking heavily at the table.

3. Intimidating presence = really weak. Yep. Can't think of more than a handful of times it could work reliably.

4. Bonus action... not OP, but not a dealbreaker.

5. There are tons of barbarian concepts, many (most?) would happily chop off both legs for an extra attack with GWF each round.

 

[Undrave]

Yes, the ability to be smug about having played a berserker and knowing all the haters are wrong.

Fair enough

Whilst I sorta-agree, it should be noted that a couple of the totems are really not great, even compared to the issues with Berserker.

Sure but there is generally one solid option per totem level.

1. What do you mean by "even more usless outside of combat?" I have rebuttals, but don't want to put words in your mouth.

Just that aside from moving heavy objects, the Barbarian isn't known for being particularly graceful in social situation or fountains of lore...

 

[Redwizard007]

Just that aside from moving heavy objects, the Barbarian isn't known for being particularly graceful in social situation or fountains of lore...

I'll grant you that they don't lend themselves to social/knowledge tasks, but there is no reason for that beyond min/maxing. Loads of examples in literature of charismatic barbarians. It is going to be less common at tables that use point buy or a stat array, but charming/intelligent barbs have happened.