D&D 5E It is OK for a class to be the worst

[Guest 6801328]

The L3 is hard to use well but powerful, and some DMs (clearly including iserith's DM) let you get away with basically no-consequences for the Exhaustion

Funny, when @iserith first made the comment about not making ability checks, pages ago, I realized that you probably hadn't participated the last few times we've gotten into this, and I had a reaction similar to @Oofta and @Charlaquin. (Although really I was picturing the scene in Every Which Way But Loose, when the two tough guys in the bar underestimate Clint Eastwood, and Clint's buddy turns his baseball cap around to watch the fun.)

The comment above demonstrates that you don't really understand what @iserith is saying, but I'm having too much fun watching to intervene in this fight.

/baseballcap

 

[Asisreo]

And you need to spend a Bonus Action to enter your rage so you can't use that bonus action attack on your first turn of rage.

And Intimidating Presence is a garbage ability that relies on your Charisma, something you have no other use for, wastes your action if you're trying to do anything else and only affects ONE creature.

The question though is not 'is exhaustion that bad'... but rather: do you really gain anything worthwhile from this class compared to a Totem Barbarian? Heck, do you even gain enough DPS from Frenzy that using either Dual Wielder or Polearm Mastery wouldn't be just as good?

Totem Barbarians get stuff that just HAPPEN automatically when they rage, no ressource to manage beyond that AND they get some fun fluffy rituals to play with. It's an infinitely more interesting subclass that isn't really that much more complicated.

You get damage, pure and simple. At 3rd, you're pumping up a possible 2d12+10 damage each subsequent round without feats with advantage if you go reckless, and if you get up to level 9, you're able to have a 6 attack rolls a turn with each attack having a possible 3d12+8 for a critical, which is more likely with advantage.

The damage gets better the more you get into it and going GWM just pumps the possible DPR very high for a magic-itemless martial.

 

[Guest 6801328]

You get damage, pure and simple. At 3rd, you're pumping up a possible 2d12+10 damage each subsequent round without feats with advantage if you go reckless, and if you get up to level 9, you're able to have a 6 attack rolls a turn with each attack having a possible 3d12+8 for a critical, which is more likely with advantage.

The damage gets better the more you get into it and going GWM just pumps the possible DPR very high for a magic-itemless martial.

4d12 for half-orc!

 

[Maxperson]

Sure but there is generally one solid option per totem level.

There are three solid options per totem level. Which you prefer is just personal taste.

 

[Asisreo]

I've been suggesting the opposite would happen so I'm extremely confused by this.

The problem the Frenzy creates is that, if they use it too early in the adventuring day, you're basically weakening the entire party for the rest of the day outside of combat (get it to 3 and its inside of combat, too).

By 3rd level, I trust my players that understand the game enough to realize kobold and friends aren't worth taking a level of exhaustion. Nor is the first fight in the game.

You can't tell me that a 5th level wizard should blow their fireball on the two goblins across the hall. I mean, look, I know, what if they do? What if they dump all their spellslots in the first two encounters in the adventure? Now they're worse than the martials and contribute basically nothing because cantrips are only so useful OoC.

They're not going to do that, because players aren't really all that braindead. 1st level exhaustion can be bad but...what? Were you in "the dungeon of stuck and/or breakable doors and other physically strong obstacles?" It's not like you're using a strength check every single OoC opportunity. Again, if it's that important, they can expend a rage for it.

It's so easy to forsee the adventure. It's not a mystery when it's close to ending. You have only a couple rooms left, the guy your facing literally was the villain the entire time, the NPC revealed themselves to be the traitor all along. You can't really miss a climax unless you've never seen any type of fiction.

Which sounds like the climax of a 3rd level adventure? The kobolds ambushing you while walking into the green wyrmling's lair, or the green wyrmling with 2 kobold sidekicks?

Just don't be braindead and a frenzy Barb is perfectly fine.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Gotta admit, I've never played Frenzy Barb but now I'm starting to want to.

 

[Shiroiken]

No matter how hard you try, there will always be a "best" and "worst" class in every game. Even in classless games, you can't get away from this as some options will always be better than others. The key is to limit the difference between them which I feel 5E has done fairly well. With very few exceptions (mostly white paper comparisons), an average character of one of the "worst" builds is not going to be dramatically weaker than the average character of one of the "best" builds. There may be a notable difference over time, but due to the impact of the d20 randomization, the difference in the moment is fairly negligible.

 

[Krachek]

I feel like they missed an opportunity with the Champion to make it simple, but not necessarily boring. Instead of the blanket crit range they should have given it a bonus depending on your Damage type. Something like you still got the extanded crit range if you inflict piercing damage, if you inflict slash you can also 'cleave' into a different guy next to you and if you inflict bludgeoning damage you can shove with a bonus action.

Simple stuff you can decide to focus on to be a one trick pony (with furher support from feats), but you can also go a bit more 'swiss army' and be able to pick weapons to suit the situation and add a small but easy to grasp strategic decision in combat.

Many opennent? Break out the scimitars and dance into battle! Dangerous terrain? Grab the hammer and ring them around! One big tough guy? Strike him in the weakspot with your spear!

I don't think it would have been too much.

Effectively if you want to think and have options on your turn the BM is perfect for that.
I don’t know why some insist to add complexity to the Champion when he have been design to remove complexity, and there is the BM that can give you all the strategic challenge you need.

 

[Fenris-77]

Gotta admit, I've never played Frenzy Barb but now I'm starting to want to.

It's fun. The exhaustion does suck, but the Rage is awesome. Never mind if your table uses UA content and you can take a level of Ranger, then you're golden. One of my boys played a Dwarf Berserker in a recent game and holy crap, what a moulinex. Blood mist and bone chips everywhere. Oh, did that use to be an Oni? It's hard to tell....

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Just don't be braindead and a frenzy Barb is perfectly fine.

I feel like your examples here were so incredibly simplistic that it's not worth arguing with. I dunno what you're playing, but in my experience most adventures don't last exactly one adventuring day and have a clear last fight in the way you're describing, so being really sneer-y about this and calling people "braindead" just seems out-of-touch.