D&D 5E It is OK for a class to be the worst

[Redwizard007]

The problem the Frenzy creates is that, if they use it too early in the adventuring day, you're basically weakening the entire party for the rest of the day outside of combat (get it to 3 and its inside of combat, too). Anything you were good at, now you're bad at it. Strongest guy in the party? Not anymore. Agile and unarmoured so stealthy and good at climbing/swimming? Not anymore. Keen senses? Not anymore. Any skills at all? Better off someone uses the Help action on someone else for all those rolls. So you have to hold it back until late in the adventuring day.

I have yet to play a barbarian in 5e so maybe I'm missing something, but isn't that the same thing that would happen to a wizard that used his high level spell slots on trivial encounters, or a paladin that ubersmited a guard instead of the BBEG, or a monk that blew through his ki points, or a sorceror that uses all his metamagic early, or...

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Can't have what both ways? My position is consistent. Also, I also did not state that anyone lacked skills. Only that certain approaches were skillful in context and I explained why.

Can't have exhaustion both be a real problem, and relatively easily avoided and inconsequential. At this point you've argued it both ways, and whilst that is probably totally consistent inside your head (because you know exactly what you think of it), it sure doesn't look like it from out here!

As for skill, okay, I get that was your intention and I accept that, but it sure seemed like you were explaining it in a way that implied others did not possess such a skill. Some of your follow-up comments just made the waters muddier.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I have yet to play a barbarian in 5e so maybe I'm missing something, but isn't that the same thing that would happen to a wizard that used his high level spell slots on trivial encounters, or a paladin that ubersmited a guard instead of the BBEG, or a monk that blew through his ki points, or a sorceror that uses all his metamagic early, or...

No. Not at all.

This isn't a one-off ability.

This inflicts Disadvantage on all checks - i.e. all skill and stat checks, until they get rid of the Exhaustion.

If it was just 1/day or X/day, it would be a really undeniably good ability and worst case would be "Oh well, I wasted my good ability", exactly as you say. But it can be optionally triggered in any rage, and causes 1 level of Exhaustion per go. Which is Disadvantage on all checks at L1, half move at L2, and Disadvantage on attacks and I think saves at L3.

 

[Maxperson]

Because it sucks to be the worse at the table and feeling like your inconsequential.

The disparity in 5e isn't that great. If you feel inconsequential, it's not from the mechanics.

 

[Redwizard007]

No. Not at all.

This isn't a one-off ability.

This inflicts Disadvantage on all checks - i.e. all skill and stat checks, until they get rid of the Exhaustion.

If it was just 1/day or X/day, it would be a really undeniably good ability and worst case would be "Oh well, I wasted my good ability", exactly as you say. But it can be optionally triggered in any rage, and causes 1 level of Exhaustion per go. Which is Disadvantage on all checks at L1, half move at L2, and Disadvantage on attacks and I think saves at L3.

I don't think that's a bug. I think its a feature. Instead of a hard cap, the designers allow the player to decide if the penalty is worth the bonus. As a final-fight ability its perfect.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I don't think that's a bug. I think its a feature. Instead of a hard cap, the designers allow the player to decide if the penalty is worth the bonus. As a final-fight ability its perfect.

That's fine, but my point is that it's totally different, mechanically, to what you're describing, because if you use it too early in the adventuring day, you cripple yourself for the rest of the day. And if you decide to use it on the final fight anyway, you cripple yourself for two days. Any time-critical adventure is going to have serious problems caused by this. Whereas a Paladin blowing his big smite too early suffers no consequences except not having it available.

 

[iserith]

Can't have exhaustion both be a real problem, and relatively easily avoided and inconsequential. At this point you've argued it both ways, and whilst that is probably totally consistent inside your head (because you know exactly what you think of it), it sure doesn't look like it from out here!

We may be using "real" here differently. I'm not using it to describe the size of a problem, just acknowledging it's a thing to contend with. And the way to contend with it is to not ask to make ability checks (not just when exhausted but ever), to describe the character's effort at tasks in a way that makes an attempt to remove uncertainty from the outcome and/or the meaningful consequence for failure, to ask for help from your comrades, and to spend resources if you need to roll.

If the DM asks for rolls for almost everything, exhaustion is going to be a much bigger problem. Hopefully, at least in my view, the DM doesn't do that and ascribes to the "Middle Path."

 

[Redwizard007]

That's fine, but my point is that it's totally different, mechanically, to what you're describing, because if you use it too early in the adventuring day, you cripple yourself for the rest of the day. And if you decide to use it on the final fight anyway, you cripple yourself for two days. Any time-critical adventure is going to have serious problems caused by this. Whereas a Paladin blowing his big smite too early suffers no consequences except not having it available.

And yet the barbarian DOES still have "it" available. He is only penalized on ability checks. That actually makes him better than those other classes.

 

[Retreater]

See, here is the disconnect. I don’t think you can make a character that can’t contribute unless that is what you are intentionally trying to do. Just because something isn’t ‘optimal’ doesn’t mean it ‘can’t contribute’.

I mean I can contribute ideas and roleplaying fun as a 1st level commoner or pack mule. But I also want to add to the party's survivability and chance for success. So when a DM told me he was interested in switching to the "gritty rest" mechanic in the middle of an adventure (so my druid would have to spend a week to regain spells), I told him I would get rid of my character and play a martial class if he used that rule. I'm not going to play a weak, worthless class. That's why I go to work.

 

[Undrave]

I don't think that's a bug. I think its a feature. Instead of a hard cap, the designers allow the player to decide if the penalty is worth the bonus. As a final-fight ability its perfect.

also, you only recover ONE level of exhaustion per long rest, meaning if you go oo hard, the penalties drag on for multiple days.