D&D 5E It is OK for a class to be the worst

I will say something a little controversial.

There will always be a weakest class because some classes are geared to aspects of the game that is not emphasized or apparent at all tables.

This is a big part of it.

If we all played with all the same emphasis on all the same rules - i.e., everyone cared significantly about rations and carry weight and daily march and sleep hours and exploration tracking - then the Ranger as seen in the PHB may actually function significantly better. Same thing with the Berserker Barbarian - if exhaustion is a risk for EVERYONE, then the Barbarian getting a level of exhaustion isn't as much a detriment because everyone will want to take that time to retreat from the dungeon and rest until healed.

The thing is, this is a modular game, with a lot of different focuses at different tables, and the classes provided need to be a constant, so that they can keep up regardless of the DM or the campaign style. That doesn't mean the base rules should expect a skipping of Session Zero (If it's an Ice Age-style game and I come prepared with my Hot-desert focused Ranger, we've got a problem of expectations between DM and the player). But it DOES mean that if the campaign takes a sharp left from 5 levels of fighting Ogres to 15 levels of fighting undead, that Favored Enemy: Giants feature is now useless (as are the necromancy-focused Shadow Sorcerer and the Evil Cleric who learned Inflict Wounds rather than Cure Wounds).

Retooling can and should be a base option, and that UA article gives each player class that didn't already have some measure of retooling a way to do it (and some to do it in capacities that they didn't have previously).

Ultimately, though, a more general-use feature is probably the simpler solution. Playing as Link being able to climb cliffs and explore and run with special stamina features is a a very Rangery replacement for favored terrains. We're looking more at the generalist survivalist rather than the specialised one. It doesn't mean it's right for ALL Ranger characters, but having opt-in options for each class is not a bad thing.

Now, we could talk about trying to make fixes and bonus features and how that causes power creep, but if the creep is across the board, then we just need to rebalance the adventures. Throw in an extra goblin or two to the encounter once you realise that the players are lasting longer than they used to.

In this thread, I also think there's a fundamental disconnect between people who want the player to play the Beastmaster Ranger the specific way that the mechanics suggest, versus people who want the player to have the option to play the Beastmaster Ranger the specific way that the the player interprets the flavor to suggest. These are not necessarily the same.

In past editions, some classes had very specific flavor, and others were broad-tent flavour. In my understanding and experience with 5e these last 6 years, the current edition tries to give as big a flavour tent as possible to each class without stepping on the other classes' toes (mixing several metaphors, I know). That doesn't mean that subclasses from different classes might feel very adjacently related - there's story overlap between the Oath of the Watchers Paladin and the Horizon Walker Ranger by intent (see D&D Beyond interview on the Paladin's UA article). I'd surmise this is the case for many subclasses - Oath of the Ancients Paladin is one way to approach the old 4e Warden concept, as well as approaching some types of past edition Ranger concepts. But you can approach those with Barbarian and Ranger as well. There isn't a one-to-one conversion from past editions' classes and archetypes, because they've been reimagined in a 5e concept. The idea is to ideally be able to tell the same stories, and to tell new stories, and to tell stories that appear in other popular (esp. fantasy) fiction stories.

As an example, with the 5e PHB, I couldn't adequately tell the story of a Druid and her animal companion, as seen as a default option in 3.5e's PHB. Variant class features UA provides me some semblance of that option without locking me into a specific subclass (Wild Companion feature, enhancing Wild Shape). It's still a familiar, not an animal companion like the Beastmaster Ranger, but it speaks to the concept in a way I couldn't tell previously. Mielikki forbid having to own a figurine of wondrous power to represent past-edition class features come the edition shift.

With the Beastmaster Ranger, then, the issue comes that there are many players who want to play a Boy-and-His-Dog story for their character (or maybe a Girl-and-Her-Giant-Frog, ymmv). This is a very different approach from players who want to play an animal-tamer who uses the wolf until it dies and then starts training a lion or a bear until it dies, etc. And it's different from the grizzled woodwose who is a friend to all nature but not so much to other humanoids, and befriends animals as they come and go, swapping them out as they travel.

The question is, SHOULD the Beastmaster Ranger encompass all of these character archetypes and more, or should it represent only one or some of them? Are subclasses narrow narrative slivers, a representative of a specific character archetype in fiction, or are they a broader piece of the puzzle here? I'd argue that some are more specific and some are less so, often relating to the specificity of the parent class (Fighter is a heck-more broad than Warlock, for example). So is the Beastmaster Ranger supposed to be ONE way of telling the animal companion Ranger character of past editions, or is it supposed to represent many ways? At what line do we draw the difference between "these mechanics don't exactly replicate my class feature, primal evocation, and martial exploit choices from 4e, so it can't translate my Ranger" and "these mechanics don't exactly represent what I could do last edition, but they respect the character I was playing?"

The same question can be said to new characters, and player expectation. Where do we draw the line between creating features to mold around player-desired abilities vs creating features that mold the way players play their characters? This isn't make-believe; we're not making it all up on the spot, and there are acceptable limits to player expectation going in - the constraints help develop the character in ways the player might not have anticipated. But they also can be so constrained that the character they might have played no longer can exist, because the mechanics keep pushing them to act contrary to their character's intentions and motives.

If you couldn't tell, I believe that the UA Ranger in Variant Class Features MOSTLY fixes the problems of the narrative, especially if you treat it as opt-in features, rather than full-scale replacement by the DM in the campaign's dossier of house-rules. But I'm not opposed to a variant subclass that trades off versatility of animal companion (and perhaps power) to have a pet that grows and evolves with the player, a la a Starter Pokémon. I think there's room for this sort of feature in the game with weapons of legacy too, though we haven't seen it fully implemented in this edition. I'm not sure what these implementations would look like. I also believe that the easiest solution is using something already made or partially made (as is the case for UA) and tweaking as we go if the power disparity is too high or too low for the campaign.

As many at WotC have said, it's almost always better to playtest new concepts without worrying about if they're broken on the high end, so as to get the "does this feel fun" and "does this respect what I want to do with the character" pillars of design right. After that, the restrictions can be figured out as they become apparent.

I think we're seeing in this forum a very small minority of players who feel that the Ranger is just fine as it is in the PHB. That isn't to say there isn't a majority of players who feel this way, but rather, there's significantly enough respondents to WotC's big data research on the game that felt the class is underpowered, that it's worth making opt-in revisions to the class. I would suspect the vast majority of respondents are NOT white-board forum theorycrafters, but rather players with experience with the class. Most of them still said the class was fine. But a lot of them said it wasn't, and the sort of data they draw in on those surveys, it's far more than can be attributed to forum posters running spreadsheets on who's more powerful here or there.

Most of us are just frustrated that our character isn't working right for the campaign, despite our best efforts and intentions. The game can't fix the campaign, but it can tinker with the core rules to more adequately reflect the base assumptions of broad-tent game play.
 

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In a list of things there will always be something that is better than something else.
That's not necessarily true. In a list of apples, oranges, and bananas; there is no clear consensus about what's better than what else. (Metaphorically speaking, at least.)

It isn't too much to ask that, in a class-based game, no class should be so far ahead of another class within the same niche that there is common consensus as to which is better.
 

Lacking concrete data, "my experience" is all I've got to go with, as have any of us in this regard. And I think I've played in and run enough sessions with enough different people, at home tables, open tables, and at cons, to be reasonably comfortable with my analysis as I can be without proper metrics and data.

Now, does this invalidate your opinion and experience? No, I would never say that. Heck, even if we both had real, concrete data, the same data set even, it would still be possible for us to draw two different conclusions from it.

The trouble is Ralif, whilst I don't doubt you're sincere when you say this, that "I haven't seen any problems!" always seems a bit facepalm-y because of the lengthy usage it saw in 3.XE, with the LF/QW problem. If you ever mentioned LF/QW back then, or even any suggestion that maybe Fighters fell behind compared to full casters, especially as you got above L5, in 3.XE, someone would chime in with "Well I haven't seen any problems with it in my game!".
 

That's not necessarily true. In a list of apples, oranges, and bananas; there is no clear consensus about what's better than what else. (Metaphorically speaking, at least.)

It isn't too much to ask that, in a class-based game, no class should be so far ahead of another class within the same niche that there is common consensus as to which is better.
Okay, but you're asking the developers to compare apples to oranges.
 

Well yeah, it is Mindless Rage and Retaliation that are the stars of the show, but I think people also over state how good other barb options are cough*beartotem*cough

I mean, I will definitely give you that!

I am not saying the other options are like whoa amazing. It isn't a case of "Pick Berserker and suck", it's just that players pick Berserker, think Frenzy will be super-amazing, and then realize how extremely limited it actually is in usage in most games.

Yes it is. It's the best possible strategy to avoid failure in a game where the DM decides if there is a check or not, based on the rules for adjudication outlined in the PHB and DMG. Plenty of players ask to make or declare they are making ability checks. If the DM acquiesces, those players' characters will fail on average a great deal more than a player who looks at a situation and tries to remove the uncertainty as to the outcome and/or the meaningful consequence for failure. I see this all the time in play.

Except that it's still not valid as an answer to any of the issues I described because vast majority of rolls you make are not ones that can realistically be avoided.

So it's not reasonable to say "Oh just don't make rolls, and the disadvantage won't matter!". Even with more voluntary ones, that's making your character useless to the party in all the situations where they were an asset, because they can no longer make the rolls. So you're saying "Well avoid playing your character or doing anything involving risk!".

Which is precisely what I'm saying - Exhaustion makes you basically useless outside combat as a non-caster. It makes you slightly less useless in combat (until L3). Also it's not 20' vs 30', it's 20' vs 40'. Barbarians are designed to be mobile - so destroying that element is quite a thing to do.

Level 10 ability can be decent. For the fact that it gives the enemy disadvantage on attack rolls, meaning you can reckless attack without taking advantage hits on your turn. It's an at-will thing, too so no harm-no foul using it on minions. It costs an action, though, so you, again, need to have good judgement.

Buddy nooooooo! :D. Don't make us do the entire True Strike thread again. Losing 2 attacks as a Barbarian, just to maybe avoid one enemy getting Advantage to hit you is almost never going to be worth it.

What's interesting is that it does something most "tank" rolls have a problem with in 5e, and that's keeping the enemies from just ignoring you and going straight for spellcasters. If your teammates are always within 15ft of you, they're relatively safe from the melee fighter you scared. Fun fact! Most melee fighters are bad at charisma saves and since it's nonmagical, it's one of the few ways to bypass those magical resistance types like devils. Most devils also have bad charisma and aren't immune to frightened.

You know what else is a "fun fact"? Most Barbarians have a 0 or negative CHA mod, and it's very unlikely it's more than the 4th stat on the best of days. So the chances of you wasting that roll are extremely high, especially if you aren't a serious metagamer who knows the stats of most enemies (esp. given many enemies have bizarrely high CHA).
 

Buddy nooooooo! :D. Don't make us do the entire True Strike thread again. Losing 2 attacks as a Barbarian, just to maybe avoid one enemy getting Advantage to hit you is almost never going to be worth it.
That's not all that I said, though. I also said it gives the barbarian battlefield control and restricts enemy movement like how a Tank character is imagined to be played.
 

That's not all that I said, though. I also said it gives the barbarian battlefield control and restricts enemy movement like how a Tank character is imagined to be played.

Except that it's very unlikely to work on most targets, just due to the maths involved. If it went off CON or STR rather than a stat that is reasonably likely to 8, it would be a different matter.
 

Indeed! Though I think the ranger has a slightly different problem, which is that there are several different things that different groups want out of the ranger, and many of them are incompatible. The ranger as a whole is a result of trying to satisfy all of those different desires, whereas I think there’s a bit more consensus on what an animal companion ranger ought to look like, and the beast master doesn’t really deliver that.

I'd argue that there isn't that much consensus over what an animal companion ranger ought to look like, at least within this thread, though I haven't reviewed the survey response breakdown of what WotC found players wanted out of revisions for the Ranger's animal companion.


That's not necessarily true. In a list of apples, oranges, and bananas; there is no clear consensus about what's better than what else. (Metaphorically speaking, at least.)

It isn't too much to ask that, in a class-based game, no class should be so far ahead of another class within the same niche that there is common consensus as to which is better.

Sure, but we don't need consensus when it comes to game revision, we just need a significantly large minority of players who are frustrated with the issue. Completely hat-pulling numbers here, but let's say 70% of players think the classes are more or less equal, while 15% say that Sorcerers are significantly underpowered and 15% say that Rangers are. If that means that 30% of tables might not buy the setting with the Sorcerer and Ranger subclass options, then that's a profit margin problem issue, let alone the 20% of Warlord-or-Bust 4e players that won't play 5e if there aren't non-magical inspiring healing frontline warrior options to port their Dragonborn Warlords into the game. If it's easy enough to make the adjustments and satisfy those significant minority customer pools, it means more long-term profits for WotC, and it also means a better game for us as a whole. And as we've seen every time they print errata or updated options, if you don't like it, you don't need to play with it. You can keep on going with the game as you bought back in 2014. There might be some confusion though, when the new player joins the group rolls up their character on D&D Beyond and is using the wording of their class features per the most recent errata. That of course is a harder catch than saying that the DM must approval all options beyond the core rulebooks.


You know what else is a "fun fact"? Most Barbarians have a 0 or negative CHA mod, and it's very unlikely it's more than the 4th stat on the best of days. So the chances of you wasting that roll are extremely high, especially if you aren't a serious metagamer who knows the stats of most enemies (esp. given many enemies have bizarrely high CHA).

Curious. You'd think that the popularity of the Thaneborn Barbarian option from 4e would mean than Charismatic Barbarians aren't such a minority.
 

Except that it's still not valid as an answer to any of the issues I described because vast majority of rolls you make are not ones that can realistically be avoided.

I'm not sure what basis you have to make that claim.

So it's not reasonable to say "Oh just don't make rolls, and the disadvantage won't matter!". Even with more voluntary ones, that's making your character useless to the party in all the situations where they were an asset, because they can no longer make the rolls. So you're saying "Well avoid playing your character or doing anything involving risk!".

Which is precisely what I'm saying - Exhaustion makes you basically useless outside combat as a non-caster. It makes you slightly less useless in combat (until L3). Also it's not 20' vs 30', it's 20' vs 40'. Barbarians are designed to be mobile - so destroying that element is quite a thing to do.

I never said "Oh, just don't make rolls..." I said to work to avoid rolls wherever possible and mitigate the ones you can't (Help, Work Together, Inspiration, guidance). Players describe what they want the character to do. If they describe what they want to do in a way that removes the uncertainty of the outcome and/or the meaningful consequence for failure, then there's no roll. They just succeed. That doesn't mean they're not doing anything. It means they're playing as smart as they should be playing when they're not exhausted.

One level of exhaustion looks a lot worse to a player who does not know this than to one who does. That was my overall point.
 

Except that it's very unlikely to work on most targets, just due to the maths involved. If it went off CON or STR rather than a stat that is reasonably likely to 8, it would be a different matter.
I guess it just depends on how you build your Barbarian. I've seen more Int 8 barbs more than cha 8 barbs, though. Cha 10, sure. If they want to be intimidating, though, they may pick up cha 14.

But I think it's just niche and situational at best and useless almost all the other time. It's not like true strike where you could've chosen a better option.

We can't act like all features in a class and subclass is especially necessary all the time. Assassin's imposter feature
 

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