D&D 5E (2014) It is OK for a class to be the worst

[cmad1977]

As a guy who plays a frenzy barbarian kinda often...
Exhaustion simply isn’t a big deal.
Level 1: totally manageable. With inspiration and OTHER PARTY MEMBERS... it’s never been an issue.
Level 2: totally manageable. I’m already faster than average so... it’s just not that bad.
Level 3: been here ONCE. Not ideal. However, reckless attack cancels that issue out and adv. on Dex saves helps too.
Never seen the other levels.

The rapidity of recovery makes exhaustion a very temporary inconvenience.

 

[iserith]

Mitigation is not a valid strategy in most potential cases, either because its not practical (many cases), or because you aren't actually mitigating anything, but rather are best off just having someone else make the check. They still lose the advantages you previously provided. And it's mathematically worse in many situations to try to gain Advantage to mitigate Disadvantage rather than put Advantage on someone else. You made the party as a whole objectively less effective.

Then, after you run the numbers in the middle of the game I suppose, have someone else attempt the task if it's very important. What's the issue? That the berserker will be moderately less effective than someone else for a short period of time?

Like the way a lot of PCs demand to make rolls, or just fail to describe things in such a was as to obviate a roll (in the few cases where that's actually possible), or just keep doing silly things which need rolls but don't actually help.

So, players performing the role of the DM in game by demanding to make rolls, failing to remove the uncertainty of the outcome and/or the meaningful consequence for failure, or the DM asking for rolls when that probably isn't necessary. It's only the middle one that I would find reasonable in a game.

 

[GlassJaw]

The rapidity of recovery makes exhaustion a very temporary inconvenience.

Say what now?

 

[cmad1977]

Say what now?

1 level of exhaustion heals after a long rest. It’s... in the rules.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

1 level of exhaustion heals after a long rest. It’s... in the rules.

No-one but you thinks that's rapid, buddy, is the point.

 

[LordEntrails]

Calling something your favourite is totally different, in every way, from saying something is the "most honest", especially as the OP of a thread. There's no getting away from the fact that it means you regard any other answer, no matter how serious and honest, as "less honest". The issue isn't future answers, it's labeling people who contributed to your thread with a blanket implication that they're not being fully honest.

Is this any different than ranking classes from Best to Worst?

I don't see the offense you do, or have the concern that I have the best / most honest / favorite answer to a thread either. Again, ranking classes, feats, and discussion posts seems to be more about the person worried with the ranking than the class / race / answer.

 

[Charlaquin]

Good grief. Not another "the player is doing something wrong if they rely on their PC's skills" thread.

 

[GlassJaw]

1 level of exhaustion heals after a long rest. It’s... in the rules.

I know the rules.

I absolutely don't consider requiring a long rest "rapidity of recovery." Quite the opposite.

You shoot your shot and then become a liability for your party until you can get another long rest. It's a terrible mechanic, and there are absolutely better ways to design a "frenzy" mechanic.

But that argument has been done to death. We all have our opinions. The larger question the OP posed is whether it's still worth discussing.

My answer is unequivocally yes.

 

[Mort]

1 level of exhaustion heals after a long rest. It’s... in the rules.

I think he means it's not rapid. Exhaustion is one of the very few things that carries over a long rest. So if you frenzy twice, you're still suffering exhaustion after the rest.

Exhaustion is one of the hardest things to remove in 5e, you can:

1. Rest - removes 1 level;
2. Greater restoration removes 1 level (a 5th level spell);
3, A potion of vitality - removes all exhaustion - it's a very rare magic item.

So frenzy is NOT an easy ability to use optimally!

Sidenote: I looked up exhaustion on D&D Beyond (too lazy to grab the physical phb) and it ends with this tidbit: Also, being raised from the dead reduces a creature’s exhaustion level by 1.

Is this the actual rule? This seems strange, shouldn't it be the other way around - adding a level of exhaustion?

I mean if it's correct, technically - optimal play is to kill the berserker right before a long rest and cast revivify - you then get optimal exhaustion recovery (and use a 3rd level spell, not a 5th), - (yes I recognize it's absurd).

 

[Marandahir]

I didn't advocate for fancy description, just taking steps to remove the uncertainty of the outcome and/or the meaningful consequence for failure wherever possible. If you can avoid an ability check, why wouldn't you try?

And I'm glad I'm not Matt Mercer. I don't know why you'd even say that.

Sorry. It was a joke, no offense intended. There was a prominent thread a bit ago PSA: You're Not Matt Mercer – largely about how we shouldn't expect players to be able to git gud at roleplaying to make up for weaker rollplaying.

What you're speaking to is great, if players can avoid skill checks when possible. That's fun at many tables, and I'd say one of the best things about 5e is that the core assumption is, if there's no chance of failure, don't roll for it. What I'm saying is that if the party needs the Barbarian to use Athletics and they have a level of exhaustion, that's pretty hard to roleplay around and still succeed at the task. It's also pretty hard to assist with an athletics check using the help action, etc. If the Barbarian needs to swim a deer carcass across a raging river rapid so that the party doesn't starve tonight, but he's got a level of exhaustion, the wizard can't really help out with that Strength check that's facing disadvantage.

I'm glad I'm not Matt Mercer, too. I do like his setting book, though.