D&D 5E It is OK for a class to be the worst

[The Crimson Binome]

Okay, but you're asking the developers to compare apples to oranges.

How so? At most, I'm asking them to clearly label the apples and oranges, such that nobody tries to compare them.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I'm not sure what basis you have to make that claim.

I mean, I've DM'd and played huge amounts of D&D including 5E? I could itemize the necessary vs. unnecessary rolls from last session if you like. It's easily 10:1 necessary vs unnecessary. Easily.

One level of exhaustion looks a lot worse to a player who does not know this than to one who does. That was my overall point.

Ok. But I do know and it is really bad.

 

[Marandahir]

How so? At most, I'm asking them to clearly label the apples and oranges, such that nobody tries to compare them.

Maybe you aren't. But enough people are asking for the developers to compare the apples to the oranges that it's worth their time to compare them.

I'm not sure what basis you have to make that claim.


I never said "Oh, just don't make rolls..." I said to work to avoid rolls wherever possible and mitigate the ones you can't (Help, Work Together, Inspiration, guidance). Players describe what they want the character to do. If they describe what they want to do in a way that removes the uncertainty of the outcome and/or the meaningful consequence for failure, then there's no roll. They just succeed. That doesn't mean they're not doing anything. It means they're playing as smart as they should be playing when they're not exhausted.

One level of exhaustion looks a lot worse to a player who does not know this than to one who does. That was my overall point.

Fancy description only goes so far, and only goes with a particular type of DM. Difficulty Classes are usually set by what the DM sees as feasibly for the player, not how well they can talk their way around the idea, especially when it comes to very physical tasks that a Strength (Athletics) check might speak to. Much more easy to do if you're Matt Mercer.

You're not Matt Mercer.

 

[iserith]

I mean, I've DM'd and played huge amounts of D&D including 5E? I could itemize the necessary vs. unnecessary rolls from last session if you like. It's easily 10:1 necessary vs unnecessary. Easily.

I've DMed and played huge amounts of D&D too. I don't even understand what you mean by "necessary vs. unnecessary rolls." A player describes the task they want to undertake. If they do so in a way that removes the uncertainty of the outcome and/or the meaningful consequence for failure, there is no check. Automatic success is always better than rolling because of the swing on the d20. An exhausted berserker can do this too. No roll, no worries about disadvantage.

 

[iserith]

Fancy description only goes so far, and only goes with a particular type of DM. Difficulty Classes are usually set by what the DM sees as feasibly for the player, not how well they can talk their way around the idea, especially when it comes to very physical tasks that a Strength (Athletics) check might speak to. Much more easy to do if you're Matt Mercer.

You're not Matt Mercer.

I didn't advocate for fancy description, just taking steps to remove the uncertainty of the outcome and/or the meaningful consequence for failure wherever possible. If you can avoid an ability check, why wouldn't you try?

And I'm glad I'm not Matt Mercer. I don't know why you'd even say that.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I don't even understand what you mean by "necessary vs. unnecessary rolls."

Okay, I guess this is the problem but er man what? You can't talk your way out of a grapple check or a perception check or a check to lever open a door so everyone doesn't die.

Automatic success is always better than rolling because of the swing on the d20. An exhausted berserker can do this too. No roll, no worries about disadvantage.

I feel like most DMs aren't going to let an Exhausted character just "talk their way out" of making checks as easily as a non-Exhausted one.

 

[Asisreo]

Okay, I guess this is the problem but er man what? You can't talk your way out of a grapple check or a perception check or a check to lever open a door so everyone doesn't die.



I feel like most DMs aren't going to let an Exhausted character just "talk their way out" of making checks as easily as a non-Exhausted one.

Can't we just not have the exhausted barbarian do ability checks by not having them try it? I mean, they can try, but if it requires someone to be successful shouldn't we just have the STR 12 person do it?

Either way, he can just rage again without going into a frenzy if it's that important. If it's not, come back to it.

 

[iserith]

Okay, I guess this is the problem but er man what? You can't talk your way out of a grapple check or a perception check or a check to lever open a door so everyone doesn't die.

Yeah, as I said, for those times when you can't remove uncertainty as to the outcome and/or the meaningful consequence for failure, you mitigate it with Help, Work Together, Inspiration, or guidance if available and appropriate.

What's an "unnecessary roll" then?

I feel like most DMs aren't going to let an Exhausted character just "talk their way out" of making checks as easily as a non-Exhausted one.

Maybe, maybe not. So the player has to take the exhausted status of the character into account when describing what he or she wants to do. No big deal. A player's goal should always be not to roll and to mitigate the swinginess of the d20 when a roll happens anyway. That is skillful play.

 

[Oofta]

Good grief. Not another "the player is doing something wrong if they rely on their PC's skills" thread.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Yeah, as I said, for those times when you can't remove uncertainty as to the outcome and/or the meaningful consequence for failure, you mitigate it with Help, Work Together, Inspiration, or guidance if available and appropriate.

Mitigation is not a valid strategy in most potential cases, either because its not practical (many cases), or because you aren't actually mitigating anything, but rather are best off just having someone else make the check. They still lose the advantages you previously provided. And it's mathematically worse in many situations to try to gain Advantage to mitigate Disadvantage rather than put Advantage on someone else. You made the party as a whole objectively less effective.

What's an "unnecessary roll" then?

Like the way a lot of PCs demand to make rolls, or just fail to describe things in such a was as to obviate a roll (in the few cases where that's actually possible), or just keep doing silly things which need rolls but don't actually help.