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It is time to forgive WOTC and get back onboard.

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
That seems overly optimistic about the human condition, to me.
Not as many as had eyes on this stuff.
So, if we go on the rumors that come from internal leaks, this was the hobby horse of one VP, the VP of Digital in charge of making the VTT (hence the focus being where it was in the final compromise). This VP has reportedly never played Dungeons & Dragons. Do I believe that one VP in a position of influence (because Said VP did actually double WotC revenue literally overnight by delivering Magic Arena), talking to top execututives whons ae not familiar with the hobby from the inside, going over the situation with lawyers who are also outside the hobby...I mean, it really doesn't at all strike me as improbable to believe they could miss these big honking issues, or see a pretty standard royalty offer with access to IP as being received poorly. Also according to rumors, most of the D&D team was left in the dark until after the NDAs started being broken, so the executive team was insulated from being corrected. However, thar barrier apparently got broken down.
Even if only a few were spearheading it, they would all look at the documents. As for the lawyers, there's no excuse. You don't need to be part of the hobby to see what the wording could allow WotC to do. Maaaaaaybe they could be excused for the royalties, but not the myriad of other issues.
I mean, I've known for 20 years that WotC and Hasbro are dysfunctional basketcases as far as workplace politics goes (a lot of Innis out there on record), but accidebtal stupidity and Chaotic decision making seem familiar enough from my career in silicon Valley. Particularly departments not talking to each other, or customer input bwingnignored until things are on fire.
That's fine. I personally remain unconvinced.
 

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Edit: To be clear, my argument is not about Paizo. It's about how various individuals or even 3pp feel about what they once regarded and were told was a "safe harbor." That safe harbor was threatened. Not everyone will be eager to return. It doesn't matter if people can "trust" corporations or the people at corporations. I don't think anything really comes of trying to invalidate how people are feeling about the situation by splitting hairs about whether corporations can be trusted or not.

I don't want to invalidate people's feeling. I know that a lot of trust has been broken. I do honestly think the move was unethical.
I do however think, that it is the reality of how the system works. Corporations do want to make money. My example of Paizo was just do demonstrate, that they also have at times retaliated hard against WotC. The only thing that was different was that usually they had the players on their side.
So in my opinion it is not about trust. For me as a player, it is only about the question if I want to exchange my money for a product or not. I don't need trust.
For 3pp it is different. But with CC, they also lost the need to trust WotC to be able to base their whole business on their product.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I don't want to invalidate people's feeling. I know that a lot of trust has been broken. I do honestly think the move was unethical.
I do however think, that it is the reality of how the system works. Corporations do want to make money. My example of Paizo was just do demonstrate, that they also have at times retaliated hard against WotC. The only thing that was different was that usually they had the players on their side.
So in my opinion it is not about trust. For me as a player, it is only about the question if I want to exchange my money for a product or not. I don't need trust.
For 3pp it is different. But with CC, they also lost the need to trust WotC to be able to base their whole business on their product.
For most companies I'm right there with you. For D&D, I'm part of a greater and tighter community so my outlook is different. This isn't the same as if Adidas threatened to lower their wages by $3 an hour and then backed off.
 

Parmandur

Book-Friend
For most companies I'm right there with you. For D&D, I'm part of a greater and tighter community so my outlook is different. This isn't the same as if Adidas threatened to lower their wages by $3 an hour and then backed off.
I mean, that's an apt analogy for the situation, in my view. A corporation tried to do something shallow and short-sighted and backed off when the deeper implications for the bottom line became clear.
 



For most companies I'm right there with you. For D&D, I'm part of a greater and tighter community so my outlook is different. This isn't the same as if Adidas threatened to lower their wages by $3 an hour and then backed off.

Yeah. Somehow being a gaming company makes people expecting them playing fair amd nice with each other. I can understand this sentiment.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Yeah. An analogy is mean to help with understanding, not represent one thing equating to another. Claiming we're equating what WotC with murder is a Red Herring. It avoids acknowledgement of what we're really saying.

On the other hand, inflammatory rhetoric is a thing, and just because you make an analogy, that does not mean the analogy is fitting.
 

Bix and Box

Explorer
Metaphor
a figure of speech in which a word or phrase is applied to an object or action to which it is not literally applicable.

a thing regarded as representative or symbolic of something else, especially something abstract.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Except they clearly only did this because of the overwhelming number of people who were turning against them. If they were "deep" or "high" thinkers, they would have done this from the start instead of as a desperate attempt to staunch the bleeding from their self-inflicted wound. Heck, if they were "deep" or "high" thinkers, they would have realized that what they did was dumb from the beginning.

Again, you might want to allow that there is not one singular "They" to talk about at WotC. Whoever started the nonsense are pretty clearly not high thinkers, sure. But that may not be the "They" who made the move to CC.
 

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