It is time to forgive WOTC and get back onboard.

[Maxperson]

Well, sure, but that's a given if Mr. Pibb is being cut off. But Kobold Press, Paizo, or any of these other toy vendors? Not my friend either.

Very few of these small business owners are my friend. But I do care about the community and the service that these small business owners, provide. Even Paizo which is a mid size company, provides that sort of service.

 

[Aspirinsmurf]

So, the way humans (and mammals in general) work, ceasing negative input is not the same as positive input, in terms of learning or training.

I have some doubts about this generalization. Torture is over-effective to the point of extracting false confessions, and the "reward" is simply that the torture will stop.

 

[Maxperson]

It's not that I don't understand the frustration and rage, I just don't share it, particularly now.

And that's fine. I'm in the middle of you and those who are still frustrated and angry. I'm willing to buy product and spend money seeing the movie, but I don't trust them and haven't forgiven them. I'm going to reserve any sort of final forgiveness at least until I see how 5.5 shakes out.

 

[Scribe]

But, just upthread you said the reward was lack of negative reaction, which isn't really a reward.

So, if you already knew what I said, how come you said that above, knowing it to be incorrect?

Thats the only reward they will be getting out of me, but as I'm sure you know there are countless others more than ready to reward them for not burning the house down.

 

[darjr]

Apologies this thread has gone deep and I missed most of it.

I’m not going back to DnDBeyond. I’m also excited to move on from WotC 5e.

I’ve been told that new in store initiatives are in the works, kinda like Wednesday D&D encounters of old.

I would have been excited and pushed my local FLGS, all of them, five now, to participate.

But now… bleh.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

The murder analogy, the robbery analogy, but what really weird me out is the spousal abuse analogies. Like we are supposed to be married to a toy vendor.

I think that the disconnect is best exemplified by why Godwin's Law is a thing.

When people engage in overheated rhetoric on the internet, there is always the tendency to go ... well, rather more-ish. I have often defended analogies- after all, analogies by definition are not perfect, as they are analogies and not identities. But the when you see certain analogies; those that invoke Godwin's Law, or comparing things to murder, felonies, or child/spouse abuse ... you have to call them out.

Not because there isn't some, likely infinitesimal, pedagogical purpose to the analogy .... but because the glib invocation of those serious issues necessarily trivializes those serious issues.


This is easily seen by turning the analogy the other way around ....

Hey, I know your sister-in-law just got murdered by her violent spouse, but it's no big deal. After all, it's just like when Hasbro tried to deauthorize the OGL. And in the end, that didn't end up doing that much, right? Wait, why are you about to punch me?

 

[Maxperson]

So, the way humans (and mammals in general) work, ceasing negative input is not the same as positive input, in terms of learning or training.

Unfortunately, most moral and ethical frameworks (where we determine what they have "earned") are not built with understanding of how we learn or change behavior.

It's also not the way humans work to actively reward someone who harmed you or people you care about, gave a forced apology, and then walked back a portion(albeit a significant portion) of what they did.

If my son made a big mess doing something he wasn't supposed to do, only apologized because I made him, and then only cleaned up 70% of the mess, I'm not buying him ice cream as a reward.

 

[Velderan]

Very few of these small business owners are my friend. But I do care about the community and the service that these small business owners, provide. Even Paizo which is a mid size company, provides that sort of service.

Yep. My FLGS isn't my friend despite what I call them. They're a business that I see having a more direct relationship with where they get to know me and help recommend products I might like to buy as a value added to our business relationship. Being able to strike up a conversation with another customer about similar interests or pick up a book or mini and decide if I want to buy it instead of having to hope the website picture or listing is accurate is a benefit to me, so much so that I'm willing to pay higher prices for that experience.

 

[Maxperson]

Yep. My FLGS isn't my friend despite what I call them. They're a business that I see having a more direct relationship with where they get to know me and help recommend products I might like to buy as a value added to our business relationship. Being able to strike up a conversation with another customer about similar interests or pick up a book or mini and decide if I want to buy it instead of having to hope the website picture or listing is accurate is a benefit to me, so much so that I'm willing to pay higher prices for that experience.

Yep. I'm blessed that my FLGS actually is my friend. The owner and I have known each other and played D&D(and many other games) together since we were in junior high in 1984. I still go to local game conventions and meet with other players, experience new games and even playtest games people are developing. The community is fantastic.

 

[Faolyn]

Again, you might want to allow that there is not one singular "They" to talk about at WotC. Whoever started the nonsense are pretty clearly not high thinkers, sure. But that may not be the "They" who made the move to CC.

I'm not assuming that there is a singular "they" who made the decisions, but it hardly matters. WotC is a company that made an executive decision. Even if only a single executive was for destroying the OGL and VTTs and every single other person who worked there was against it (but couldn't stop it), it wouldn't matter. WotC still made that decision.

And has been pointed out many times, they have made similar decisions in the past (as did TSR). Just not to this scope.

As for moving 5e to CC... as I said, they were losing customers. It wasn't generosity or decency or even intelligence; it was desperation.

I could, of course, be entirely wrong, and maybe One will be continue to be as totally backwards compatible as it claims to be. But I for one will be very surprised if that's the case.