It is time to forgive WOTC and get back onboard.

[mamba]

Ding ding ding... and it is WotC's brand recognition that allows this.

You bolded the wrong part Notice the self-perpetuating dominance. The OGL ensures very few attempt to unseat them and those that could maybe try cannot do so because they do not have the broad ecosystem and get big enough to actually try.

The benefit to WotC is that it ensures their position in the center of the universe, because it gets constantly reinforced instead of constantly challenged.

it has been proven the vast majority of those playing D&D use WotC materials only...

the majority only uses the PHB + DMG + MM, so this is obviously true

so when you claim that WotC benefits just as much or more from the OGL as 3pp I think you are vastly overestimating exactly what and how much they gain... I think WotC has a better handle on this and is in fact why they were willing to terminate the OGL... I'd bet it's not benefitting them to the extent hardcore gamers on a D&D focused forum seem to think it is.

I think they underestimated it, and that is why they changed course. What is your explanation for them changing course then

 

[darjr]

Ding ding ding... and it is WotC's brand recognition that allows this. Sure WotC benefits from 3pp in niche stuff but it has been proven the vast majority of those playing D&D use WotC materials only... so when you claim that WotC benefits just as much or more from the OGL as 3pp I think you are vastly overestimating exactly what and how much they gain... I think WotC has a better handle on this and is in fact why they were willing to terminate the OGL... I'd bet it's not benefitting them to the extent hardcore gamers on a D&D focused forum seem to think it is.

Well it absolutely hurt trying to take it away.

They apologized twice! And maybe a lot more depending upon these impending YouTube interviews.

Hurt so bad they gave away the SRD to CC!

 

[Imaro]

but they define an IP you want to branch out into movies and TV. If Marvel only had the name and no heroes and stories, there would not be an MCU.

They have IP... we went through this. The Brand of D&D is not the same and actually transcends a singular IP they own... and I think they would be foolish to tie it to one IP when they have a multitude of IP to draw on. The minute they tie D&D to specific characters, or a single campaign setting it becomes less about all of the various games we play and more about that one thing. Homebrew is the most popular setting... why would they ever limit themselves like you and a few others seem to suggest they should.

EDIT: As for the MCU and their characters/stories... they have no problem totally redefining both for the MCU... to the point that some have asked... why even base these on the existing characters and stories in some cases.

 

[Imaro]

Well it absolutely hurt trying to take it away.

They apologized twice! And maybe a lot more depending upon these impending YouTube interviews.

Hurt so bad they gave away the SRD to CC!

I don't disagree with this, but they are separate issues. The backlash could very well hurt them worse than any benefit they would receive from revoking it. Still has no bearing on how much the OGL actually benefits them. I find it crazy that we think WotC decided to try and do this on a whim, that they and Hasbro didn't crunch numbers and analyze the monetary aspect of this before moving forward. What they didn't anticipate was the emotional reaction to it by their fans.

 

[Sacrosanct]

CR is important, but I think they get too much credit for the rise of D&D's popularity. The timeline seems to back this up:

Big Bang Theory: 2007
Community AD&D episode: 2011 and 2014
5e playtest: 2012
5e release: 2014
Stranger Things: July 2016 (filmed in 2015)
Critical Role: 2015. took off in 2017, and 2018 when they broke from Geek and Sundry



5e was very popular when it was first released, and that was before CR started streaming their games. So CR can't be given credit for something that happened before they were even known.
Stranger Things was filmed when CR was still in its infancy, so CR doesn't get credit for that either. I'd argue that ST had more of an impact than CR for the game's popularity.
And we saw D&D appearing pretty frequently in TV shows. The books were always in the background of BBT, and several episodes had them playing it. This was long before CT was a thing.

So while CR is important, they were just one piece of a larger overall resurgence.

 

[darjr]

I don't disagree with this, but they are separate issues. The backlash could very well hurt them worse than any benefit they would receive from revoking it. Still has no bearing on how much the OGL actually benefits them. I find it crazy that we think WotC decided to try and do this on a whim, that they and Hasbro didn't crunch numbers and analyze the monetary aspect of this before moving forward. What they didn't anticipate was the emotional reaction to it by their fans.

The whole debacle is crazy.

From the attempt. From the idea someone thought it was a fiat acompli, so much they filmed videos!
To the bizarre condescending communication that I swear sounds like my eight year old grandson wrote in his worst moods.

To the dumping of the complete SRD 5.1 into CC, which I can’t believe they gave it enough thought about what they gave away to CC.

And yet to think there was sensible, reasoned, well thought out precursors to all this?

It’s possible I suppose.

And if so you’d think they’d ask some 3pp first.
The founder of Kobold Press was, as far as I know, THE most invited guest to Dragon Talk.

Did nobody ask him?

 

[Imaro]

The whole debacle is crazy.

From the attempt. From the idea someone thought it was a fiat acompli, so much they filmed videos!
To the bizarre condescending communication that I swear sounds like my eight year old grandson wrote in his worst moods.

To the dumping of the complete SRD 5.1 into CC, which I can’t believe they gave it enough thought about what they gave away to CC.

And yet to think there was sensible, reasoned, well thought out precursors to all this?

It’s possible I suppose.

I don't find it any crazier than the treatment of Paizo's employees that came out a year plus ago... which is to say these are corporations, not my friend I make transactional purchases with them but I don't personalize it. Otherwise I wouldn't be buying Paizo products either... and again let's not look beyond the business of ttrpg's it just gets worse and worse.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I'm not ignoring anything. I'll make it more plain.

CR has done more to establish a brand, and its not even remotely close, than the D&D team has.

Apples and oranges IMHO.

 

[Enrahim2]

Ding ding ding... and it is WotC's brand recognition that allows this. Sure WotC benefits from 3pp in niche stuff but it has been proven the vast majority of those playing D&D use WotC materials only... so when you claim that WotC benefits just as much or more from the OGL as 3pp I think you are vastly overestimating exactly what and how much they gain... I think WotC has a better handle on this and is in fact why they were willing to terminate the OGL... I'd bet it's not benefitting them to the extent hardcore gamers on a D&D focused forum seem to think it is.

No, I think wizards grossly underestimated the amount of us that stick with 5ed due to the ease of getting players for 3rd party content using third party tooling.

After all they were the ones that completely failed to read the room with regard to what sort of outcry it would be when they tried to cripple third party production.

 

[darjr]

I don't find it any crazier than the treatment of Paizo's employees that came out a year plus ago... which is to say these are corporations, not my friend I make transactional purchases with them but I don't personalize it. Otherwise I wouldn't be buying Paizo products either... and again let's not look beyond the business of ttrpg's it just gets worse and worse.

Yea but Paizo didn’t plan on being crap to employees. They just were. They fooked up bad.

WotC suites planned this. It now seems apparently for years.

 

[mamba]

They have IP... we went through this.

I am not saying they don’t, of course they do. I am saying the D&D logo / brand is not the same as IP.

Also, most of their IP carried over from TSR, WotC has been trying hard to make that IP more generic in 5e instead of actually building upon it.

The Brand of D&D is not the same and actually transcends a singular IP they own... and I think they would be foolish to tie it to one IP when they have a multitude of IP to draw on. The minute they tie D&D to specific characters, or a single campaign setting it becomes less about all of the various games we play and more about that one thing.

so they have IP, but using it would be foolish… not sure I agree, you can have a FR movie (arguably we are getting one), a DL movie and so forth. To me that is no different from having a Iron Man and an X-Men movie.

Homebrew is the most popular setting... why would they ever limit themselves like you and a few others seem to suggest they should.

so the best they can do is generic fantasy with a D&D logo… not sure I have any reason to care then, might as well watch a different generic fantasy movie without the logo. At that point all that matters is the story, so there is no competitive advantage an IP would have given them…

There is a reason why we have Iron Man movies rather than ‘random super guy, brought to you by Marvel’

EDIT: As for the MCU and their characters/stories... they have no problem totally redefining both for the MCU... to the point that some have asked... why even base these on the existing characters and stories in some cases.

and the answer is, the name sells, and they also did not stray too far from the established lore / IP. If you had ‘Metal Guy’ instead of ‘Iron Man’ I doubt they would have had the same level of success

 

[Faolyn]

Where I see this logic breaking down is... doesn't this in turn apply to any other fantasy game built on the OGL system... say Pathfinder or 13th AGE or any other. So why does this benefit D&D and WotC specifically?

I fail to see how the logic breaks down. The vast majority of games that use the OGL system are broadly compatible with 5e.

And I imagine that the companies that produce books that aren't that compatible had other reasons to use the OGL. You may want to ask them.

 

[mamba]

I find it crazy that we think WotC decided to try and do this on a whim, that they and Hasbro didn't crunch numbers and analyze the monetary aspect of this before moving forward.

they certainly looked into this, but I doubt they have a good way of measuring the impact of the OGL on their bottom line (or lack thereof). So in the end that was a gut decision, not a numbers decision

 

[Parmandur]

The whole debacle is crazy.

From the attempt. From the idea someone thought it was a fiat acompli, so much they filmed videos!
To the bizarre condescending communication that I swear sounds like my eight year old grandson wrote in his worst moods.

To the dumping of the complete SRD 5.1 into CC, which I can’t believe they gave it enough thought about what they gave away to CC.

And yet to think there was sensible, reasoned, well thought out precursors to all this?

It’s possible I suppose.

My graduate level studies in ethics and epistemology and years of working in corporate environments make .e involved to believe that fairly well meaning decently intelligent people can be involved in decision making processes that end up in massively stupid outcomes.

And if so you’d think they’d ask some 3pp first.
The founder of Kobold Press was, as far as I know, THE most invited guest to Dragon Talk.

Did nobody ask him?

Given what we've heard, I would wager nobody involved with Dragon talk was on the inside of this initiative.

Yea but Paizo didn’t plan on being crap to employees. They just were. They fooked up bad.

WotC suites planned this. It now seems apparently for years.

I mean...did you look into what happened at Paizo very closely? Because systematic gender and ethnic harassment don't just happen, nor does underpayment people, abusing them and firing them for being "uppity." Conducting meetings with Jewish subordinates ina room with Nazi symbolism doesn't "just happen."

 

[Parmandur]

After all they were the ones that completely failed to read the room with regard to what sort of outcry it would be when they tried to cripple third party production.

Here's the thing: I don't believe that anyone thought that theybwere crippling anything. I fully believe they thought they could get their cut as a win-win for everyone. Theybwere super wrong, but that's humanity for you.

 

[darjr]

WotC absolutely knew it was going to be controversial. The leaks even talked about how WotC said it up front.

And yet they didn’t think to ask anyone else? Not even the folks who have talked to essentially everyone in the D&D industry?

 

[darjr]

Also I dint like this tactic. I didn’t forgive Paizo. They made a substantive change within. The company going forward that those very employees got on board with.

WotC? I still dint know what their future plans are and if anything at all has changed inside.

 

[Imaro]

Also I dint like this tactic. I didn’t forgive Paizo. They made a substantive change within. The company going forward that those very employees got on board with.

They corrected what they had been doing wrong... something they had been doing alot longer then WotC had been considering/moving towards revoking the OGL, and wouldn't have if it hadn't gone public... What did they do above and beyond?

WotC? I still dint know what their future plans are and if anything at all has changed inside.

They corrected what they had been doing wrong... they release the 5th edition SRD under the creative commons as an olive branch. What else should they do?

Note: I buy from both, I'm just not getting this personalization of WotC and what it did vs something like what Paizo did. They both self corrected and so I purchase from both.

 

[darjr]

They corrected what they had been doing wrong... something they had been doing alot longer then WotC had been considering/moving towards revoking the OGL, and wouldn't have if it hadn't gone public... What did they do above and beyond?



They corrected what they had been doing wrong... they release the 5th edition SRD under the creative commons as an olive branch. What else should they do?

Note: I buy from both, I'm just not getting this personalization of WotC and what it did vs something like what Paizo did. They both self corrected and so I purchase from both.

Paizos change changed the company for the better. And they put their money where their mouth is by doing ORC and hiring a law firm and committing ti defend the OGL 1.0a in court.

What WotC did was amazing and the right thing. But they remain the same. The same corporation that pulled this stunt in the first place.

Forgive me if I don’t want to give them my money right now.

Edit: and for the sake of all the gods forgive my typos!

 

[Imaro]

Paizos change changed the company for the better. And they put their money where their mouth is by doing ORC and hiring a law firm and committing ti defend the OGL 1.0a in court.

What does any of this have to do with the accusations of their mistreatment of their employees?? Aso they didn't defend anything and haven't created anything yet. ORC doesn't exist yet so they haven't actually done anything.

What WotC did was amazing and the right thing. But they remain the same. The same corporation that pulled this stunt in the first place.

So the same corporation that released the OGL, the same corporation that created 5e, the same corporation that release 5th edition SRD to CC... what exactly needs to change?

Forgive me if I don’t want to give them my money right now.

Hey no need to forgive anyone for how they choose to spend money. I'm trying to understand the why of it. You and some other posters seem to have personalized your relationship with WOtC and I don't understand that. If you were a 3pp I could understand some resentment and distrust but as a consumer it baffles me.

Edit: and for the sake of all the gods forgive my typos!

Lol... I'm sure I'v racked up quite a few in this thread as well.