It is time to forgive WOTC and get back onboard.

[Scribe]

So, the way humans (and mammals in general) work, ceasing negative input is not the same as positive input, in terms of learning or training Unfortunately, most moral and ethical frameworks (where we determine what they have "earned") are not built with understanding of how we learn or change behavior.

Yes, I know, and they will be rewarded by many with the positive reinforcement you are talking about.

 

[Maxperson]

To be clear, they said that they are not doing what they said they were going to do. That's what everyone wanted.

Also to be clear, they previously said (way back when) that you could always rely on it. For complicated legal reasons, that statement then was just as valid as any statement they make now. So even if they did, in some sort of, oh, FAQ or something,* the "people who could not be pleased" would just say that you couldn't trust them- because they did it before. The only way to undo the method they used would be ... to release a new license! Which wouldn't solve the underlying problem regarding the issues with the drafting of the OGL 1.0(a).

So there are, in fact, conspicuous legal reasons that not only did the community get half a loaf, they got a loaf and a half.

Just to be clear.

But if you would like to be more clear to me, explain to me exactly how, legally, they were supposed to "backdown" even further. Feel free to explain it using any complicated terms that are necessary to make your point. To be 100% clear.



*See what I did there?

In addition, there's no longer any upside for them to deauthorize OGL 1.0a or prior OGLs. They wanted to control 5e and the VTT world, but with the release of SRD 5.1 into CC, that cat is permanently out of the bag. The only thing they would really accomplish by shutting down the OGLs would be to stir up the hornets nest again, and corporations don't generally do things that have no upside and a major downside.

 

[Umbran]

Yes, I know, and they will be rewarded by many with the positive reinforcement you are talking about.

But, just upthread you said the reward was lack of negative reaction, which isn't really a reward.

So, if you already knew what I said, how come you said that above, knowing it to be incorrect?

 

[Parmandur]

Metaphor
a figure of speech in which a word or phrase is applied to an object or action to which it is not literally applicable.

a thing regarded as representative or symbolic of something else, especially something abstract.

Symbols can be apt, or inapt.

 

[Parmandur]

I don't think it's so much that they expect them to play fair and nice, though I'm sure some amount of them do. Rather I think that they just take it more personally and become even more upset when it happens, because they are more emotionally invested. When Del Taco stopped carrying Mr. Pibb I was upset, because it's my favorite drink. I never stopped going to Del Taco, though. I'm much more emotionally invested in the D&D community than the Mr. Pibb community.

OK, now that's an analogy that fits how I've felt about the whole thing. So, imagine you were disgruntled about the Mr. Pibb situation, but someone you were talking with started ranting about how Del Taco was committing highway robbery and threatening to kill people by not offering Mr. Pibb, and that captures my experience.

 

[Imaro]

The irrevocability and safety of the OGL are, in practical is not strictly legal terms, much more in doubt than it was before Christmas. That is a real, material change.

No it isn't... the matter has been settled (and if it hasn't WotC has the same power to do the same thing they could have chosen to do before Christmas. Nothing changed except for the fact that the 5th edition SRD has been released into the CC... which IMO is a net positive out of this whole thing.

Nobody is equating them. Thinking twice about buying a company's products is not the same as sending people to prison for a couple of decades.

Nobody is equating them and yet the same example of murder/attempted murder has been used by various posters to drive home their perceived severity of WotC's actions... uhm...ok.

 

[Parmandur]

No it isn't... the matter has been settled (and if it hasn't WotC has the same power to do the same thing they could have chosen to do before Christmas. Nothing changed except for the fact that the 5th edition SRD has been released into the CC... which IMO is a net positive out of this whole thing.



Nobody is equating them and yet the same example of murder/attempted murder has been used by various posters to drive home their perceived severity of WotC's actions... uhm...ok.

The murder analogy, the robbery analogy, but what really weird me out is the spousal abuse analogies. Like we are supposed to be married to a toy vendor.

 

[Maxperson]

OK, now that's an analogy that fits how I've felt about the whole thing. So, imagine you were disgruntled about the Mr. Pibb situation, but someone you were talking with started ranting about how Del Taco was committing highway robbery and threatening to kill people by not offering Mr. Pibb, and that captures my experience.

I think a closer situation would be if Del Taco stopped offering Mr. Pibb and 1000 small business owners I care about who supply Mr. Pibb to various Del Taco locations would suddenly be without income and with no warning. My feelings about the cancellation of Mr. Pibb at Del Taco would be much stronger at that point.

The outrage and ill will that you saw, and to a much smaller extent still see, isn't really about a corporation making a corporate decision. It's about the 1000 small business owners that these people care for.

 

[Parmandur]

I think a closer situation would be if Del Taco stopped offering Mr. Pibb and 1000 small business owners I care about who supply Mr. Pibb to various Del Taco locations would suddenly be without income and with no warning. My feelings about the cancellation of Mr. Pibb at Del Taco would be much stronger at that point.

The outrage and ill will that you saw, and to a much smaller extent still see, isn't really about a corporation making a corporate decision. It's about the 1000 small business owners that these people care for.

Well, sure, but that's a given if Mr. Pibb is being cut off. But Kobold Press, Paizo, or any of these other toy vendors? Not my friend either. And while a bad business decision that has potebtially negative effects is not desirable, remote and material cooperation isn't something thar keeps me up at night, or otherwise I'd have to flee into the desert and become a hermit.

 

[Parmandur]

I think a closer situation would be if Del Taco stopped offering Mr. Pibb and 1000 small business owners I care about who supply Mr. Pibb to various Del Taco locations would suddenly be without income and with no warning. My feelings about the cancellation of Mr. Pibb at Del Taco would be much stronger at that point.

The outrage and ill will that you saw, and to a much smaller extent still see, isn't really about a corporation making a corporate decision. It's about the 1000 small business owners that these people care for.

It's not that I don't understand the frustration and rage, I just don't share it, particularly now.