• NOW LIVE! Into the Woods--new character species, eerie monsters, and haunting villains to populate the woodlands of your D&D games.

It needs to be more of a sandbox than a railroad?

I would railroad the hell out of a player who was spending valuable table time discussing radishes. "Okay Tom, you have a long and fulfilling discussion about radishes. While Max is talking to this farmer for the next few hours, what are the rest of you doing? And by the way, you see someone observing you from the shadows."
I'm not sure where you think the railroading is here.

Telling players that their PCs see an observer in the shadows doesn't look like railroading to me. Nor resolving a conversation with an NPC via a quick summary (in the absence of any conflict or disagreement between PC and NPC).
 

log in or register to remove this ad

I think it's good to think of a sandbox game as a map with terminals and a number of different railroads the players can get on. And they can choose to ride that rail as far as they want. If they get off at the next station, then great, but if they jump off in the middle, then you have to think on your feet.

For my campaign, the PCs start the game on a tropical island. On this island exists a native village; lizardmen marshes; a destroyed, abandoned, and haunted colonist village; an old lighthouse with caves beneath that lead into an ancient temple (the excavation of these tunnels made the excavation team mad who went and killed the colonists); a haunted mansion of the former governor of the colony; a jungle with goblin monkeys, dinosaurs, etc; caves of crabmen with myconid slaves.

There are very solid hooks for them to follow, and anytime they bite then they climb on the train to an adventure. My DM notebook has over a dozen full adventure modules in it. Some them are reskinned classics like the Saltmarsh adventures, or The Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan, while others are newer short DCC modules, and even a 4e adventure I liked, as well as my own homebrew adventure ideas and maps.

My players have explored one half of a level of a dungeon, then left, explored part of a sunken ship, and then attacked the cultists under the lighthouse. They may never explore the lizard swamps or the jungle shrine or the ruined village or the haunted manor. They may fight against or join the pirates that are scheduled to arrive in a week, or they may not go to the area of the island those pirates are at. If they interact with the pirates, they may end up for a ride partway on the Pathfinder pirate Skull & Shackles adventure path, and if they veer off that, they may head down to the Isle of Dread, sail into Freeport, go undersea with the Sunken Empires underwater city, or maybe they'll run into the Razor Coast adventure setting, or sail all the way up to an Oriental Adventures setting.

I think trying to have a multi-directional dynamic campaign setting can be more work than running a one-direction game (which is why I stock my world with pre-made modules and just sketch out the basics of new home-brew adventures until they bite). You may have a lot of material they never see. But I personally think that players should be able to make real and meaningful change in the world. That even means they can disregard adventure hooks completely or they can join up with one of the factions in the world (which may or may not be considered villains).

To help round out the spaces between adventure sites I use some random tables that represent encounters appropriate to the area. No, not all encounters are level appropriate, but that doesn't mean they automatically die. The level 1 PCs heard something big thrashing in the jungle and they hid, so the T-Rex didn't see them (they were downwind) and it wandered off. If it had seen them, then they could have run or climbed a tree, or tried something else. Regardless, they appreciate the options they have.
 
Last edited:

The "sandbox" v. "railroad" dichotomy is a false one (as are most comparisons in the gaming world). The world does not exist of it's own accord, it functions only to the extent that it has been designed to. A "true" sandbox is reality, since a TTRPG cannot fully simulate reality, it cannot be a true sandbox.
I disagree. There is a very real dichotomy, and both of them do exist at endpoints of a spectrum. But both are extreme, radical approaches to the game. There's no such thing as a good/bad dichotomy; because both are so extreme as to automatically be bad games to the vast majority of most players. Luckily, few games really are "true" sandboxes or "true" railroads, since "true" examples of each are sort of like Platonic ideals, not something that you really see in real life. As games approach too near to either endpoint, however, they start to exhibit the problems inherent in either approach.

I also think it's fallacious to refer to adventures as sandboxes or railroads. Adventures can be written with a sort of assumption of a more sandboxy or more railroady approach, but in reality, the sandbox/railroad dichotomy really only makes sense when describing GM behavior at the table, not what's written in the adventure. An adventure written with the assumption that the GM will railroad the players from point A to point E with points B, C, and D along the way can still play out as a sandbox if the GM fails to give enough meaningful feedback to the players that they can "find the game" and they end up wandering around either ignoring the adventure or doing something else entirely, or whatever. And the most sandboxy game supplement in existence can be a railroad if the GM fails to allow the players do succeed at anything other than what he already had in mind for them to do.

For my money, I prefer to sketch an outline of what I expect a few sessions will look like. I make plans for points A, B, C, and D. I give my players plenty of plot hooks. I often give them competing plot hooks, so they have meaningful decisions to make on what they think sounds most interesting. And I'm more than happy to indulge them if they think of something else that they may want to check out, and if it leads to points X, Y and Z that I totally did not plan in advance, that's totally fine too. To me, that's taking some advantages of both approaches without indulging in their weaknesses if you run the game at either extreme.

However, I also treat the setting somewhat like a character. If--to use an obvious example--the PCs decide in the middle of a dungeon that they're tired of it and want to quit, they don't get a magical "teleport back to town" option. They have to actually leave the dungeon. If they've been down their for a while causing trouble and making noise, then that might be easier said than done. A lot of sandbox fanatics will call that railroading on my part. In my opinion, this characterization is absurd. Sandbox does not mean that logical consequences don't follow the actions of the PCs. If the PCs make a powerful enemy by their own actions and their own choices, that enemy might well attempt to thwart them, have them assassinated, put out a bounty on their heads, etc. This will in turn limit some of the options that might have been open to them had they not made an enemy of that NPC. But that's just the logical consequences of the choices that they made. That's not a railroad, that's just common sense.

By the same token, the world doesn't just sit around static. In a computer RPG, if you talk to an NPC in town and he says something to you, he usually ends up just sitting there indefinitely and says the same thing to you again if you come back to his area and talk to him again. In my games, if the PCs elect to follow a plot hook that they find interesting, something may well be happening with the plot hook that they ignored. If they decide to go look for treasure in the Old Forest and ignore the hints that orcs are brewing in the Black Hills, they may come back to town with their treasure only to find that the town has been razed to the ground and most of the inhabitants dragged into slavery, or left to rot in ruins of the streets.

I strongly believe in giving the players their heads to go drive the adventure that they want to have. But I also strongly believe that most players aren't motivated to make adventure out of nothing, and prefer to have rather obvious hooks to pursue. This is especially true early in the game, when they don't yet have much of a connection to the game world, to each other, or even to their own characters yet, and need a bit of a heavier hand until such time as they can develop those traits. I don't really worry about trying to label my games as sandbox or railroad either one, because to me, both are pejorative.

I also find that rah-rah sandbox type players raise a lot of red-flags with regards to the implicit social contract. Sure, it's nice to have players who are ambitious enough to take on the game and really engage with it. But that can also easily turn into spotlight hogging and pushy/bossy behavior that alienates or aggravates the other players.

Like I said, both approaches have things to recommend them. Both of them "unbridled" would be disasters from my perspective. The trick is to walk a line somewhere between them, giving the PCs both enough direction and enough freedom that they feel satisfied with the game.

To me, this has little to do with how an adventure is written.
 

I'm not sure where you think the railroading is here.

Telling players that their PCs see an observer in the shadows doesn't look like railroading to me. Nor resolving a conversation with an NPC via a quick summary (in the absence of any conflict or disagreement between PC and NPC).
Avoiding that jargon then:

I would override player choice in the following ways...

1) I would make the radish player commit to the decision to have that discussion.
2) I would insert a plot device in front of everyone else to get the game moving again.

What I would not do is spend valuable table time catering to that type of player agency.
 

I would override player choice in the following ways...

<snip>

I would insert a plot device in front of everyone else to get the game moving again.
I don't see how this is overriding player choice. I see that it is forcing a choice. But I'm missing how it is overriding a choice.
 

Railroading, sandboxing, and illusionism are all tools in the GMs toolbox. Just as you wouldn't necessarily use a grinder to remove a nail, but sometimes it becomes your only choice.

That's a good way to look at it.

As I've learned through the years, the only thing that matters is Perception. Perception is Reality. What the players think is going on trumps everything else.

So if you know what's important to the players, you use the right tool at the right time to satisfy their expectations.
 


Nice to see this thread veering back into civil thoughtful discussion :) Dropping in with some quick thoughts.l.

Hobo said:
Adventures can be written with a sort of assumption of a more sandboxy or more railroady approach, but in reality, the sandbox/railroad dichotomy really only makes sense when describing GM behavior at the table, not what's written in the adventure.
I appreciate the spirit of your post, and agree the DM is critical in this regard. However, I wouldn't discount the role adventure design plays. Earlier [MENTION=1210]the Jester[/MENTION] mentioned Red Hand of Doom as an adventure style that accommodates both railroady and sandboxy gaming styles. But that's thanks to its unique design. It's very hard work for a DM to parse information from a linear adventure and turn that into a sandbox. Likewise, with a pure adventure setting it's hard work for a DM to make a linear story out of it.

In other words, yes it CAN be down, but that ups the DM's workload significantly. If you're using a published adventure why not have it be as close to the style (railroady/sandboxy) that you want? Better yet, why not write adventures to accomodate both styles (like Red Hand of Doom)?

That's a good way to look at it.

As I've learned through the years, the only thing that matters is Perception. Perception is Reality. What the players think is going on trumps everything else.

So if you know what's important to the players, you use the right tool at the right time to satisfy their expectations.
That's totally true, but even with experienced players I know well it is still tricky. For example, mostly they are fairly reactive players but sometimes they'll fight me framing a scene when their "railroad" antennae go up. Now, I know it's from their past DM experiences, but what I've found is my safest best is to eliminate the illusionism. So now when I give them a choice, it's always a really choice, no illusion of choice.
 

That's totally true, but even with experienced players I know well it is still tricky. For example, mostly they are fairly reactive players but sometimes they'll fight me framing a scene when their "railroad" antennae go up. Now, I know it's from their past DM experiences, but what I've found is my safest best is to eliminate the illusionism. So now when I give them a choice, it's always a really choice, no illusion of choice.

That does make it complicated.

I figure try to look at what not to do as a GM, by what I think a player typically wants from a GM:

  • I want my choice to matter
  • I want my choice to not be active thwarted because it is outside of what the GM envisioned happening
  • i want to have plausible choices
  • I want to have meaningful choices
  • I want what happens next to make sense in the context of my character, the NPCs and the setting
  • I want opportunities that would be interesting to my PC, rather than what's in the module the G< bought
  • I want reactions/outcomes to my previous activities to demonstrate an effect and change on the setting

As listed, I don't know that those points will help you make an adventure. But they will help identify when the adventure or the GMing is at risk of conflicting with all that.
 

In fact, in the traditional D&D adventure, the GM writes the adventure before the players have even designed their PCs.

And in an adventure path the whole thing is authored in advance of PC-creation and play.

When I talk about framing in response to hooks provided by the players, I'm talking about the GM following the players' lead in framing scenes and providing opposition.

I think you might have taken my post out of context. I was initially replying to mcbobbo's post #27 where he described all published modules as railroads. I inferred then he was taking the railroad/sandbox issue from an adventure debate to campaign debate.
So we were indeed talking about things on opposite ends of the scale and not all the variances in between
or about indie-style adventures.

In a game run indie-style there is no conceptual scope for sidequests because the whole game is nothing but player-driven "sidequests".

Nice definition.
 

Into the Woods

Remove ads

Top