Item Creation pricing question

[Kalendraf]

I'm trying to determine the price for a rather simple customly made magic item. I've not had the pleasure of dealing with this until now, and I need some assistance. The table(s) in the back of the DMG spell out most of the info, but I'm still not sure I understand it entirely.

The item being crafted is a bracelet with the ability to cast the shield spell. It will have a drawback of only being useable by a sorcerer or wizard. The item is to be crafted at 2nd level spellcaster ability for the shield spell duration (2 minutes). How many times per day it can cause this effect is yet to be determined - that hinges somewhat on the resulting cost of the item. Options being debated include: A) always in effect, B) use-activated (unlimited), or C) 5 times per day.

From the tables on DMG pg 242 and 243, it seems that the use-activated price would be:
1 (spell level) x 2 (caster level) x 2000gp x 0.7 (class specific requirement price reduction of 30%) = 2800gp.

The 5 uses per day cost appears to be the same since the price / (5/5) = price. Strange, but the table seems to imply this result.

I'm not seeing a pricing factor for the effect being made continuous. I suspect that makes it much higher, but I'm not seeing an entry for this.

I'd appreciate some enlightenment on this. Ultimately, I'm interested in the 3 prices, but understanding how to arrive at the three prices would be even more helpful. Thanks.

 

[Staffan]

The spell level*caster*level*X formula is generally a last resort, except for things like scrolls, potions and wands, and should almost never be used for items that mimic short-duration spells as either continuous or at-will effects (since that negates the disadvantage of a short duration). For a continuous item, I'd price it along the same lines as an Amulet of Natural Armor or a Ring of Protection (since it's an AC bonus that stacks with armor). The cost of an Amulet or Ring +7 would be 98,000 gp (ignoring that they usually don't come in more than +5). However, since the Shield doesn't give the all-round protection that the Ring does, I'd probably reduce the price to something like 75,000 - more than half, because it's going to be effective against far more than half the opponents faced.

I'd reduce the price a bit more for an at-will effect or one that can be used 5 or more times per day, perhaps to 65,000 gp. By the way, the reason that items that can be used 5 times per day aren't less expensive than at-will items is that they aren't all that much less useful, especially given that the system is based on four relatively easy encounters per day.

 

[Kalendraf]

Re: Re: Item Creation pricing question

The spell level*caster*level*X formula is generally a last resort, except for things like scrolls, potions and wands, and should almost never be used for items that mimic short-duration spells as either continuous or at-will effects (since that negates the disadvantage of a short duration)

Can you please point me to the passage in the DMG that explains when or when not to use the formula? I'm not locating it. I can understand your rationale for that point of view, but I'm not finding any rules to back it up.

Consider if instead the item had been a Wand of Shield w/ 50 charges. That item would cost 1x2x750gp = 1500gp. It would have essentially the same restrictions as the use activated version proposed, but after 50 uses it would expire. Given a typical session as you mention w/ 4 encounters, that item will last about 12 or more sessions before needing to be replaced for a mere 1500gp. That's pretty cheap in a typical 3E economy. The bracelet w/ 5 uses or at will ability costing the 75,000 gp as you propose would have no market since you could just keep buying these wands instead.

I figure the price of this bracelet with 5 uses or unlimited uses is in the low thousands as a result of the equivalent wand price. It's much weaker than a protection ring or amulet as you propose because it only protects a single side of the character, so I don't thing you can really compare it to something like that.

 

[Staffan]

Re: Re: Re: Item Creation pricing question

Can you please point me to the passage in the DMG that explains when or when not to use the formula? I'm not locating it. I can understand your rationale for that point of view, but I'm not finding any rules to back it up.

Page 243, in the Behind the Curtain section. The paragraph that starts with "You'll notice, however, that not all the items presented here adhere to these formulas directly."

I also recommend looking at Monte Cook's "Making magic items FAQs" at http://www.montecook.com/arch_dmonly3.html and http://www.montecook.com/arch_dmonly4.html .

I figure the price of this bracelet with 5 uses or unlimited uses is in the low thousands as a result of the equivalent wand price. It's much weaker than a protection ring or amulet as you propose because it only protects a single side of the character, so I don't thing you can really compare it to something like that.

That's why I reduced the price from the 98,000 gp a ring of protection +7 would cost to something like 75,000 gp - a reduction of almost 25%. Like I said, it will help in far more than 50% of the cases. I also suggested dropping the price a bit more for an item that needed activation, since you'd usually need to spend the time in an encounter to do that.

 

[kreynolds]

Re: Re: Re: Item Creation pricing question

Can you please point me to the passage in the DMG that explains when or when not to use the formula? I'm not locating it. I can understand your rationale for that point of view, but I'm not finding any rules to back it up.

There aren't any rules to back it up. What there are, however, are suggestions and advice in Behind the Curtain. Keep in mind though, that the formulas themselves are also only suggestions. They're just a guideline to get you started, then you tweak the price from there.

 

[Kalendraf]

Thanks for the links. I agree that the item I propose is probably one that can't be so easily fit into the equations, and the steeper price makes sense. I'm actually going to recommend that the character just opt for a wand of shield instead. With a wand, characters tend to use them only when they really think they need to, but with a re-useable item, it's almost a given that they will activate the item in every situation, especially if it has multiple charges per day. Thus, the wand becomes better from the DM's standpoint - sometimes the character may feel the need to conserve charges, and not opt for using it, yet still providing them with the resource in case they really want to use it.

The character in question is a 6th level sorceress with a rather pathetic AC of 14. Lately, the party is fighting some big critters (ogres, hill giants, etc) in Liberation of Geoff (which I'm converting to 3E on the fly), and the proposed item is really meant to give that sorceress a chance to not be automatically squished by each and every boulder or club that comes her way. Spells like mage armor help a little bit, but when the giants have +16/+11 on their attacks, it becomes rather painful for the low AC sorcerer in those cases where the front line lets one get thru (which seems to happen all too often in spite of the prowess of the ranger6, monk6, cleric6/fighter1 and rogue7 in the party). After considering a number of requests (better rings of protection, amulets of natural armor, bracers of armor, etc), it seemed that an item providing the shield spell may be just what the doctor ordered. With mage armor and shield, the AC would be bumped from 14 to 25, requiring the hill giants to at least roll a 9 to hit, and giving the sorceress a smidgeon of hope of survival in case one does bust thru the line.

I'm also attempting to keep this new item in lines with the estimated character wealth guidelines on pg 145. Currently, the sorceress has about 8K worth of equipment, meaning she's about 5K below her "ideal" for 6th level. It looked like the proposed bracelet would be about the right value as well, though I'm definitely leaning toward the wand of shield instead. I'll likely toss another item into the mix to help her out as well.

 

[kreynolds]

I'm actually going to recommend that the character just opt for a wand of shield instead.

If she's just looking to purchase one, that's fine. However, if she's looking to actually make it, you need to have a better reason why she can't other than "It's better for the DM if you can't." Just some advice.

 

[Marshall]

The continuous version should be shot down really quick or at least priced like Staffan suggested.

Looking at the 5/day or Unlimited use versions and considering that she will have to give up one action/2 rounds to keep it active, I find myself agreeing to the 2800gp figure. Its a comparable item to the Bow of True Striking. It looks good on paper, but functionally its rarely useful.

 

[Staffan]

Looking at the 5/day or Unlimited use versions and considering that she will have to give up one action/2 rounds to keep it active, I find myself agreeing to the 2800gp figure. Its a comparable item to the Bow of True Striking. It looks good on paper, but functionally its rarely useful.

Shield has a duration of one minute per level, not round. So you'd generally only need to activate it once, at the start of a battle. If the battle runs long (more than ten rounds, or twenty if you make it at 2nd level), you'd need to reactivate it but certainly not as often as every other round.

 

[Kalendraf]

The reason 2nd level casting level was being considered here was for exactly that reason. It's not uncommon for combat to last in the range of 5 to 10 rounds, and sometimes you find a fight going extra innings pushing 12 or 15 rounds, but it's very rare to see one that lasts more than 20 rounds. By that time, either the monsters or the party tends to be quite dead.

Either of these variants (wand or activated bracelet) will typically find the sorceress using up her 1st action to bring up the shield, especially if the foes are too close for her to launch large ranged spells like Lightning bolt or Fireball. So it will hamper her offensive effectiveness in that 1st turn, and the initial turn can be quite decisive in determing the length and general flow of an encounter. Even if I allow the bracelet with 5 activations per day, I don't think this is unbalanced here. In cases where the party is surprised, the item will not provide any aid for that opening attack. So I'm still considering the bracelet idea. The player is willing to go with the wand, however. Saves them some gold which is also a concern here.