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D&D General "It's not fun when..."

Reynard

Legend
Supporter
I was in a discussion on another board about legendary resistance and another user said "It's not fun when you use your best spell and the BBEG just shrugs it off with no effect." And while I can see their point, and even agree with their follow argument that all-or-nothing spells and abilities are kind of lame, I generally don't agree with the broader point. I don't think a player should feel entitled to mash the win button with one spell.

Anyway, this thread isn't really about legendary resistance. It's about when people make arguments for rule changes based not on balance or system issues, but just on the basis of what's fun.

Obviously, fun is subjective so I would really like it of folks would avoid badwrongfunning stuff. It's okay to say you don't think this or that would be fun, but don't attack posters over their preferences.

I am more interested in where conceptual ideas of "what's fun" intersect with design -- from the core system level to the individual adventure, spell and monster level.

Let's try and use examples, especially changes between editions or variant rules or house rules to talk about fun and design.
 

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Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
I was in a discussion on another board about legendary resistance and another user said "It's not fun when you use your best spell and the BBEG just shrugs it off with no effect." And while I can see their point, and even agree with their follow argument that all-or-nothing spells and abilities are kind of lame, I generally don't agree with the broader point. I don't think a player should feel entitled to mash the win button with one spell.

Knowing that this isn't what you are asking about, I still wind up with an aside - The stated complaint is that "the BBEG shrugs it off with no effect." The stated complaint is NOT, "I didn't win the fight with this one spell."

There is this huge expanse between "no effect" and "I win!". The complaint, as stated, does not imply a broader point that players are entitled to win with one spell.
 
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pukunui

Legend
The stated complaint is that "the BBEG shrugs it off with no effect." The stated complaint is NOT, "I didn't win the fight with this one spell."

There is this huge expanse between "no effect" and "I win!". The complaint, as stated, does not imply a broader point that players are entitled to win with one spell.
It's also not like Legendary Resistance makes them immune to the spell. It just lets them auto-save. So if the spell does half-damage on a save, then there is still an effect.

I generally don't tell my players when a monster or NPC has used their Legendary Resistance. I just announce that they've made the save. My players are none the wiser.
 

Reynard

Legend
Supporter
The stated complaint is that "the BBEG shrugs it off with no effect." The stated complaint is NOT, "I didn't win the fight with this one spell."

There is this huge expanse between "no effect" and "I win!". The complaint, as stated, does not imply a broader point that players are entitled to win with one spell.
Okay. Good thing I noted this thread isn't actually about legendary resistance.
 

Reynard

Legend
Supporter
It's also not like Legendary Resistance makes them immune to the spell. It just lets them auto-save. So if the spell does half-damage on save, then there is still an effect.
The thread isn't about legendary resistance.
I generally don't tell my players when a monster or NPC has used their Legendary Resistance. I just tell announce that they've made the save. My players are none the wiser.
I run on FG so that is not really an option.
 

mamba

Legend
The stated complaint is that "the BBEG shrugs it off with no effect." The stated complaint is NOT, "I didn't win the fight with this one spell."
it would have done the same with a successful save, so either pick a 'better' spell where it is not all or nothing but all or half damage, or live with the fact that the exact same thing could have happened on a different roll just the same, no legendary resistance required,
 

pukunui

Legend
The thread isn't about legendary resistance.
That was the only example you provided.

OK, so here's something I don't find fun: not being able to do anything on your turn in combat. Whether that's because the dice were against you or because you've been confused / paralyzed / otherwise lost your turn. It's especially not fun when it happens on multiple consecutive rounds, and then the other players start teasing you about how useless the PC you envisioned as being pretty badass is turning out to be.

BUT I don't think I would want to change anything about the game. I just need to change my mindset. (And perhaps the people I play with. :p)
 

Reynard

Legend
Supporter
That was the only example you provided.

OK, so here's something I don't find fun: not being able to do anything on your turn in combat. Whether that's because the dice were against you or because you've been confused / paralyzed / otherwise lost your turn. It's especially not fun when it happens on multiple consecutive rounds, and then the other players start teasing you about how useless the PC you envisioned as being pretty badass is turning out to be.

BUT I don't think I would want to change anything about the game. I just need to change my mindset. (And perhaps the people I play with. :p)
Shutting down a PC for an extended period can definitely feel unfun. From a design perspective I think the Recharge and Concentration mechanics can be leveraged to avoid this (unless a PC is over powered, in which case they deserve it).
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Okay. Good thing I noted this thread isn't actually about legendary resistance.

Interestingly, my note didn't mention legendary resistance. I spoke generally on purpose.

I recognize it is an aside, but... when you are talking about what is fun, and what is not fun, you kind of have to listen very carefully, or you will miss what the players are actually asking for. If the player isn't saying "this is only fun if I can mash the 'I win' button," (in whatever form that takes), then you are missing what they find fun.
 

I wondered if counterspell was not fun. A player of a wizard only has one thing, casting spells, and counterspell fellt to me like the GM saying "nooo fun for you this turn!".

I asked my players and they were fine. Counterspell is part of the game and they were OK with enemies using it on their characters. After all, they got to use it as well. If nothing else, you still force the enemy caster to use a spell slot and their Reaction (hat-tip Reynard) so its not a wasted turn.

The ones that all of us agreed was not fun was forcecage and banish.
 
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