Its Official: I HATE Vitality/Wound. You?

[wingsandsword]

But I was thinking, what if they had a few encounters with Vader before the climactic battle?

Basic rule of Star Wars GM'ing: Never put the PC's in direct combat against anybody you don't want to die. Don't put the PC's into a duel unless you're willing to deal with one or the other dying. Unlike D&D, a fight can end in one lucky hit (from either side), and there aren't any plot-device Teleport spells or the like to provide an instant escape.

Start a rumor that Vader is coming, or maybe even they intercept a radio transmission that announces Lord Vader's arrival, have an Imperial shuttle land in the area with full TIE escort, lots of stormtroopers are swarming around, the Force-Sensitive PC's get a very bad feeling about all this. Smart (or not stupid) PC's should RUN at this point, and as they are fleeing they get a distant view of Vader entering their hiding place surrounded by several dozen stormtroopers (if they stay, they might just get blasted down by waves of Stormtroopers, with Vader looking on, deeming your PC's unworthy of his blade). Just when the PC's feel safe, a different figure in noble's garb with an Imperial rank badge and a red lightsaber steps out and says that their deaths will please Lord Vader. Palpatine using Dark Jedi as minions in addition to Vader to hunt and kill Jedi is very well established, dating back to Asajj Ventress (among others). If they defeat the Inquisitor, the PC's get their victory and can make a getaway, but they'll be hunted by the Inquisitorus (with Vader occasionally making a distant cameo) for the rest of the campaign. Make the PC's feel hunted. It is the Dark Times, when the Jedi are all but extinct, PC's shouldn't be scoring big wins.

Things like that are why Imperial Inquisitors were created, as Jedi hunting servants of Vader who the PC's can kill without wrecking the setting. Emperor's Hands are also good for this.

Vader as a nemesis, that's one thing, Vader as direct opponent, not really. I've already read too many threads on the WotC boards from GM's about "I thought it would be cool for Vader to attack the PC's, but they killed him, what do I do?" (except with much poorer spelling and grammar). In all my years of running Star Wars, I've never put the PC's directly against Vader (or the Emperor), it's a big galaxy, and there is plenty of room for adventures without taking them on directly. Mentioning them, of course, seeing them at a distance, okay, meeting them in a situation where combat would be outrageously stupid idea, great, having to thwart their plans in a way that doesn't directly confront them (Lando at Cloud City is a good one for that last idea).

(I'm running a campaign set in the same time period now myself, so I've given this a LOT of thought).

 

[Remathilis]

I didn't say that it HAS to be expected. I know I wouldn't. However, I'm not saying that the PCs PURPOSEFULLY throw a wrench in your plans...but if they get into combat with ANYONE, you have to assume there's a possibility they'll win.

These kind of threads pop up all the time. "They killed my BBEG too early!" style things. It CAN happen, and, its best to assume it WILL. If you don't want someone dead, don't put them into combat with the PCs. That's the only way to make sure it doesn't happen in ANY game without ignoring rules.

Very true. Its happened alot in D&D as well (the DM scramble to save the plot-device NPC). A determined PC can do terrible things to a campaign.

I guess my point is that V/WP adds a random factor that can be both exciting and frustrating. The excitement comes from the thought that death can come quickly and without notice. the Frustration comes when it ruins the best laid plans of men and DMs.

While reading this thread, my hat of w/vp no longer know no limit. Perhaps its more of a burnout than a hatred. Never-the-less, I don't think I'll be incorporating the rules into my D&D game anytime in the near future.

 

[Odhanan]

I basically think VP/WP is fine for Star Wars: it fits the "heroic yet not that goofy" feel of Star Wars, in my opinion. And yes, your 10th level Jedi can be knocked out by a mere Stormtrooper, laying on the ground for the rest of the fight... a bit like Leia during the Battle of Endor.

However, I tried to implement it in a AE/D&D campaign, and it didn't work great. Not because it was too deadly, but because it was two health traits to take care of instead of the just one, overcomplicating the issue (Did I do a critical hit? Where are the healing spell's points allocated? - too much houserules), and it was making in practice low level characters much tougher, with most opponents becoming insignificant as oppositions unless they scored a critical hit. In the end, that was too much messing around with the system in terms of complexity and challenge ratings. So I gave up and came back to standard hit points in my tabletop game.

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

I guess my point is that V/WP adds a random factor that can be both exciting and frustrating. The excitement comes from the thought that death can come quickly and without notice. the Frustration comes when it ruins the best laid plans of men and DMs.

THAT, I'll agree with. I can be frustrating...though, truthfully, I've only had that once or twice compared to an uncountable number of exciting and fun experiences.

While reading this thread, my hat of w/vp no longer know no limit. Perhaps its more of a burnout than a hatred. Never-the-less, I don't think I'll be incorporating the rules into my D&D game anytime in the near future.

I wouldn't ever put it into D&D. It really wouldn't fit the style at all.

 

[Remathilis]

Start a rumor that Vader is coming, or maybe even they intercept a radio transmission that announces Lord Vader's arrival, have an Imperial shuttle land in the area with full TIE escort, lots of stormtroopers are swarming around, the Force-Sensitive PC's get a very bad feeling about all this. Smart (or not stupid) PC's should RUN at this point, and as they are fleeing they get a distant view of Vader entering their hiding place surrounded by several dozen stormtroopers (if they stay, they might just get blasted down by waves of Stormtroopers, with Vader looking on, deeming your PC's unworthy of his blade). Just when the PC's feel safe, a different figure in noble's garb with an Imperial rank badge and a red lightsaber steps out and says that their deaths will please Lord Vader. Palpatine using Dark Jedi as minions in addition to Vader to hunt and kill Jedi is very well established, dating back to Asajj Ventress (among others). If they defeat the Inquisitor, the PC's get their victory and can make a getaway, but they'll be hunted by the Inquisitorus (with Vader occasionally making a distant cameo) for the rest of the campaign. Make the PC's feel hunted. It is the Dark Times, when the Jedi are all but extinct, PC's shouldn't be scoring big wins.

Thats what the DM DID. It was during the raid on the temple in RotS with hundreds of clones swarming and Anakin/Vader wandering around dispatching younglings. The PC was to escape before it was too late, but instead ran after Vader to put an end to this...

I think he did it as a glorious way to die. He didn't think he would (have) actually won. As it stood, the PC fled after watching Vader take a fatal blow and keep truckin, but thats another story.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

My problem with the system isn't really critical hits, it's the fact that, currently, just about every attack roll is a hit - especially in melee.

Thus, while you have VP in-line with a D&D character's HP, they tend to go away much, much, much faster because you don't have the AC (called Defense in Star Wars) to turn attacks into misses. And when every attack is doing 3d6 or 3d8 points of damage (that's a standard, unaugmented blaster and a standard, unaugmented heavy blaster or blaster rifle), those VP don't last very long. A character with 50 hit points in D&D can take a couple rounds of combat. A character in d20 SW can't.

Thus, while critical hits go straight to WP, your VP buffer generally isn't as big as you think it is, and normal hits tend to go to WP pretty quickly, as well.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

So does anyone think that a critical being removed with a Force Point is going to screw the system up?

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

So does anyone think that a critical being removed with a Force Point is going to screw the system up?

The only problem I can see is that you can only draw on the force once per round. Thus, if you're already "Force-Empowered" to get a bonus on your attacks [or saves, or Force Powers, etc.], you can't, in addition, use the Force to dodge a crit.

Maybe make "Crits are treated as normal hits" a standard side benefit of drawing on the Force?

Alternatively, increasing the number of ways you to use Force points may have one of two effects:

1. Players who save their Force points for something big will be even more convinced that they need to save them for something big, and will spend them less than they "should" - this may be less fun; and,

2. Players who like to use their Force points will go through them even quicker, meaning that they are more likely to not have any when they really need them - this may be less fun

So, just some thoughts to keep in mind.

 

[wingsandsword]

So does anyone think that a critical being removed with a Force Point is going to screw the system up?

In the old d6 Star Wars, there was a force power called "Reduce Injury", which required Control and meant that if you were going to be killed outright by an attack, you could spend a Force Point (one of only two powers in d6 that required you to do that) to reduce your injury level to Mortally Wounded. It was the plot-device power so major villain NPC's wouldn't be killed unless the GM wanted them to die then, or they had been run out of Force Points.

To adapt that to d20 terms, I'd let any Force-User with Control who would be dropped from positive wound points to dead spend a Force Point to fall to -1d8 WP and dying.

As for not ruining the game, it favors PC survival, and it means duels with NPC's are likely to end with one party or the other living (or being left for dead) unless it's been a truly long duel where both sides have exhausted their Force Points. The old "Reduce Injury" works quite well also for Anakin/Vader surviving his fate on Mustafar.

 

[billd91]

I don't think ameliorating a crit with a force point would be a problem. Sounds like a good use of them to me, more of a hero point kind of thing.
I'd also be willing to not allow the use of force point bonus dice to be applied to confirm a crit either to keep crits a little more under control.

I don't think there's be a problem with drawing on the force only once a round. There are choices to be made after all.

Or, here's an option. Consider the rolling your defense variation in D&D. Normally, PCs are considered to be taking 10 on their defense rolls and thus the base AC is 10, but that could be rolled instead. Maybe the force bonus should also be added to the character's defense. That might also help reduce crits significantly while the force is being actively called upon. Make some sense. In combat, would you really expect drawing on the force to only affect your ability to actually hit something without also improving your defense?
I'm NRBH, so I don't know if there's already some provision for this in the rules, but it seems a reasonable brainstorm.