Its Official: I HATE Vitality/Wound. You?

The thing is, in all of the source material, I see three tiers of characters:

1) Nameless-minor-NPCs. These include the droid armies, clone troopers, and stormtroopers, but also those rebel pilots who are only known as "Red X", the Jedi who don't have names, and so on. These characters are totally expendable, and may be slain with impunity.

2) Named-minor-NPCs. Examples include Greedo, Jango and Boba Fett, Darth Maul, and Wedge Antillies. These characters are more important, if only by virtue of having names. However, they aren't hugely significant to the story. Minor named characters can and do die in simple or even embarrasing ways. However, they are given the honour that we actually get to see them die.

3) Major-NPCs (& PCs). These are the key heroes and villains of the story, whatever it is. They never die easy. If one of these characters does die, it is at the hands of at least a named minor character, and never without a significant struggle. It just doesn't happen in the setting.

(Actually, this third category seems almost universal. The only example of a major character who then dies without any struggle at all is Achillies.)

(Oh, and I am aware that this argument is rather circular - one of the main differences between a named minor and a major character is the way they die, and one of the main differences in the way they're handled is that they have to die the correct way.)

Anyway, the VP/WP rules just don't model the categories well. As it stands, a PC can die in a trivial manner, for no reason that supports the plot.

The rules could be made to support this division, by disallowing critical hits on PCs and major NPCs, but that's not how they currently stand. Besides, if you make that change, you remove the 'advantage' of the VP/WP rules in that they are more lethal and encourage more cautious play.

wingsandsword said:
but heroes die in Star Wars

True, but not in a trivial or simple manner.

(Padme died, killed by a Sith Lord,

Well, killed by a broken heart, because George needed her dead for his story (and also because we needed one more continuity problem).

Qui-Gon to Darth Maul,

Not a simple or trivial death. Dying at the end of a long hard struggle is not something I have an issue with. Dying with one hit in the first rounds of combat, when you are a major character, is something that I feel should be prevented.

Mace Windu and other masters to Sidious,

Note that the other masters are never named in the films. The only one I can put a name to off the top of my head is Kit Fisto, and he was hardly a major character. Mace Windu, of course, didn't die easily.

and Vader crushed windpipes of officers killing them quickly,

Not exactly major characters.

Sith Lords are supposed to be deadly, when a Sith Lord is the nemesis, a PC death is a very real possibility and defnitely fits with Star Wars)

PC deaths I can accept. Trivial and pointless deaths for major characters do not fit Star Wars, and they make for a lousy game as well.

And, yes, a GM can make a ruling to prevent such things occurring, but I'd rather fix the system that gets the game to that position in the first place, rather than play on with a huge (perceived) weakness in place.
 

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delericho said:
PC deaths I can accept. Trivial and pointless deaths for major characters do not fit Star Wars, and they make for a lousy game as well.

And, yes, a GM can make a ruling to prevent such things occurring, but I'd rather fix the system that gets the game to that position in the first place, rather than play on with a huge (perceived) weakness in place.


What I think you're describing here is a certain amount of plot-based immunity for major characters. The weakness you perceive in the VP/WP system is that it doesn't do enough, from a gamist, rule-oriented perspective, to preserve plot-based immunity for major characters.

With that being the case, there's no way any of us who don't hold the same gaming philosophy, at least with respect to Star Wars, to convince you that the system is a good one. Because clearly characters can die an ignominious death. But for those of us who don't believe in plot-based immunity, VP/WP can still be a pretty useful system.
But then, I also think that the only way in any game system to make sure there is some form of plot-based immunity is GM fiat. Even D&D has plenty of spells and other hazards that can cripple a party if the dice turn against them (watch out for rolling 1s on saving throws and all that).
 

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
These kind of threads pop up all the time. "They killed my BBEG too early!" style things. It CAN happen, and, its best to assume it WILL. If you don't want someone dead, don't put them into combat with the PCs. That's the only way to make sure it doesn't happen in ANY game without ignoring rules.

Incidentally, Spycraft 2.0 has an NPC quality called "Story-Critical". It boosts the benefits of a Special NPC's action dice, especially when used for Defense or healing.
 

billd91 said:
What I think you're describing here is a certain amount of plot-based immunity for major characters. The weakness you perceive in the VP/WP system is that it doesn't do enough, from a gamist, rule-oriented perspective, to preserve plot-based immunity for major characters.

Pretty much thats my whole point.

Between spells, healing magic, raise dead, and even wish, PCs have lots of ways to recover from a bout of "bad diceism" or an exceptionally lucky streak. There are no real ways to avoid this in SWd20. If Darth Maul had jumped off his speeder bike and Critted Qui-Gon, the whole saga would have been different.

Your Epic Final encounter can end quickly by either a PC critting your foe in round one or (as I saw not too long ago) an NPC descimate an entire party in a few rounds. Neither is very "satisfying" as an ending, but I've seen both.

I think this actually might be skimming another topic: Are your PCs Heroes or merely Protagonists? Do you build your plots directly around them or are they merely the one's who are wittness to the events of the campaign? The former camp seems not to like randomness that can muck up a good story or a beloved character, the latter seem not to mind making combat deadly since the PC can always be "replaced" by another without destroying swaths of plotline.
 

If you add a Fort save to resist WP injury then the problem goes away, and VP/WP becomes a better system than lowered Massive Damage Thresholds for respecting character level.
 

eyebeams said:
If you add a Fort save to resist WP injury then the problem goes away, and VP/WP becomes a better system than lowered Massive Damage Thresholds for respecting character level.
You want a Fortitude saving throw first before applying any damage to WP???

Just go with d20 Modern MDT health system.
 

Remathilis said:
I think this actually might be skimming another topic: Are your PCs Heroes or merely Protagonists? Do you build your plots directly around them or are they merely the one's who are wittness to the events of the campaign? The former camp seems not to like randomness that can muck up a good story or a beloved character, the latter seem not to mind making combat deadly since the PC can always be "replaced" by another without destroying swaths of plotline.

My games always have the PCs as the central heroes to the story. But, at the same time, I have no fear about a character dying and a story having to change slightly because of it. Believe it or not...that makes for BETTER stories than where everyone is safe and okay.

The dead PC will never be 'replaced' in any sense, though a new character may join the group. There is a difference between just replacing a role in the group and having an entirely new character join for their own reasons.

But remember, we're playing RPGs, not writing stories. If you don't want death, write a story and don't play a game. Blunt? Yeah, but you have to accept that critical hits HAPPEN. And while you may think they're horrible, they rarely actually kill in SWd20, though they very well could knock a person unconcious...but then again, think about it. Vitality represents glancing blows, near misses, and dodging. Wounds are actual hits. If YOU get hit with a lightsaber/blaster bolt/vibroweapon, you're going to be lucky to make it out in one piece.

Again, this may not perfectly mesh with your style of play, and that's fine, but don't fault the system for promoting a style that fits the game. Getting hit in Star Wars is much more dangerous than getting hit in D&D, and usually does result in death or unconsciousness.
 

Remathilis said:
I think this actually might be skimming another topic: Are your PCs Heroes or merely Protagonists? Do you build your plots directly around them or are they merely the one's who are wittness to the events of the campaign? The former camp seems not to like randomness that can muck up a good story or a beloved character, the latter seem not to mind making combat deadly since the PC can always be "replaced" by another without destroying swaths of plotline.

As shocking as it might be, some people actually *gasp* want a different style of play. I prefer a dark and gritty game where "any punk with a gun" canbe a threat. I want the PC's to have to use tactics and stealth or even possibly avoid combat to accomplish their task. I've grown tired of players up to their eyeballs in magic items and buff spells wading into combat without fear of death and without the comfort of knowing they can be raised on a whim.

Some people want those things in their game.
 

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
Vitality represents glancing blows, near misses, and dodging. Wounds are actual hits. If YOU get hit with a lightsaber/blaster bolt/vibroweapon, you're going to be lucky to make it out in one piece.

True, but my point is that Vitality, in that regard, is usually useless. It doesn't matter if you have 1 or 1,000 vitality, if your Owen Lars or Boba Fett, or if your a PC or a nameless commoner, DEATH (or near death) is always one lucky die roll from happening. Thats it. It ignores defense (most crits happen on the "always hit" 20, and confirming is usually easy except on tertiary attacks), it ignores Vitality, and looks at one number: your 3-18 Con score.

Its realistic. Its brutal. and in my opinion, horribly unheroic. Then again, I might define heroism different than other people. Thats fine: I don't expect everyone to agree with that. I'm just saying that after my 7th or 8th "sit-this-fight-out-because-the-DM-rolled-well/lucky" I begin to think there has to be a better way. I want my Jedi to go toe-to-toe with a Sith, dodging and weaving and (if the Sith is the better opponent) dying after all his energy is spent and he is facing a superior duelist (better atk/defense/vitality) not get critted in the first round before I've acted and be at -4 watching the Other PCs either finish up or get swatted like flies (depending whose rolling better!). Sadly, my experiences show that a duel is never about the better character, but the luckier player.

(While this is true in D&D as well, my experiences is that its the exception, in SW, its almost the rule).

Ankh, I think at this point it would just be wise to agree to disagree. I believe every word you say, but its done little to convince me the V/WP really makes Star Wars. However, thanks for the spirited debate.
 
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GlassJaw said:
As shocking as it might be, some people actually *gasp* want a different style of play. I prefer a dark and gritty game where "any punk with a gun" canbe a threat. I want the PC's to have to use tactics and stealth or even possibly avoid combat to accomplish their task. I've grown tired of players up to their eyeballs in magic items and buff spells wading into combat without fear of death and without the comfort of knowing they can be raised on a whim.

Some people want those things in their game.

Which is fine for those who do. For those who don't its a real pain in the Kiester.

I'm all for a grim-n-gritty, dark game with tactics and stealth, I just wonder if that style rules is compatible with the swashbuckling-space-fantasy that Star Wars is (to me).
 

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