Its Official: I HATE Vitality/Wound. You?

[HeapThaumaturgist]

I think SWd20 could do with entirely scrapping the Force Point mechanic and moving to Grim Tales' style Action Points.

Of course you would then rename them Force Points.

But you'd get more of them, they'd refresh regularly, and you'd use them for more things. One of those things would be confirming critical hits.

The GM doesn't get any Force Points. He GIVES you Force Points to confirm critical hits.

That removes the problem on the PC side.

As for not killing Important Villians left and right, I suppose a mechanic where the GM negates your crit by giving you ANOTHER Force Point could work.

The key is it's up to both the players and the GM, but it isn't just GM Fiat. You get a definate bonus and the GM pays a definate price to confirm a critical hit on you, and vice-versa. There's opportunity costs involved and a system laid out in the rules that is followed. (As opposed to a sudden "Eh, I don't want you to do that right now." there's the knowledge that there's always the CHANCE of that happening AND that you'll be rewarded in some way for your cool critical threat roll ... just not rewarded by blowing the back of Vader's head off.)

--fje

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

To be honest it sounds like YOU are playing the "rare game" if your foes are regularly carrying blaster pistols, NOT weilding lightsabers, NOT weilding Blaster Rifles, and you're careful to make sure there's no recurring villians and the players are all okay with getting knocked out. If you're playing mostly PBP games, it could have something to do with the slower nature of the medium and that there are fewer rolls being made.

Actually, the foes I put up against the PCs regularly carrying dangerous weapons. They've dealt with blaster rifles, lightsabers(thought a bit rarer, as the game I usually talk about is New Republic/pre-NJO era), AND blaster pistols. Smugglers, soldiers, and crazies. While I do run mostly PbP games, they move fast and combat works the same way as it would normally...and, again, the main game I speak of was actually a MIX of PbP and face to face. And yet, with experiencing all of these things multiple times, the PCs still pull through. Yes, there have been deaths, but that happens in RPGs.

But as kenobi65 put it, some of us have obviously had vastly different experiences with the system. That is to be, obviously, expected. But, since the experiences are so different, you can't go around claiming that things are IMpossible, because the second you do that, you'll find people that work it without the problems you've got...why? Probably just comes down to stylistic differences that happen from group to group.

There's really not much I can add, as I've said pretty much everything already. I can't prove you wrong, because you haven't been in my games and even then, you could easily argue that my experiences are just odd and wrong...despite the fact that I'm not alone, and most all of my players/GMs would agree with me. But this thread has shown there ARE ways to fix the problems you might see and experience with the system.

But not everyone is going to see them, especially with a Star Wars game where people have different levels of exposure to Star Wars(movies, comics, novels, etc). Everyone wants something different. I guess you could say I(and those who agree with me) got lucky, because the designers of the game have a pretty similar viewpoint on what makes a Star Wars game as we do. Sorry that doesn't match up for everyone, but obviously it can be fixed. Really, though, can you expect to make an "I Hate!" thread without people coming in to defend it?

 

[Remathilis]

Hmm, so what do you think of my idea about a Defense bonus vs. confirmation rolls only, that scales with level?

An idea worth merit, I believe. Perhaps it would be simpler to just create a "crit DR" rather than a "Crit AC"

I think Crits should still be a viable option, but not the ONLY one. A "soft crit" rule would be super...

 

[Remathilis]

I think SWd20 could do with entirely scrapping the Force Point mechanic and moving to Grim Tales' style Action Points.

Of course you would then rename them Force Points.

One idea we toyed with was making FPs more AP style. However, the Group only went half-way with it: I had wanted an ability that converted wound damage back to vitality, as follows:

A character may spend a force point to convert some wound point damage back to vitality. He rolls as per improving a d20 roll, but instead converts this many wound points into vitality damage instead. He may only convert as much wound to vitality as he has vitality remaining. (So if his converted wound runs him out of remaining vitality, the rest of the converted damage affects his wound like normal.) If the character has no vitality left, this ability doesn’t help him. He may do this once per attack. Using this ability still leaves the PC fatigued as normal.
A character may spend a force point to stabilize himself if he is in negative hp, but not yet at -10.

No one liked it. I dunno why. So we ended up going from Hordeing every force point ever (because you got 1 per level and the DM rarely gave them out) to a replenishing pool that gets used like crazy, esp for attacks (thus, if that magic 10% came up, your were toast).

I didn't mention this because I know its a house rule one, I think needs fixing. However, I'm surprised no one took up my idea for converting WP into VP...

ADDENDUM: I think its fair to say that the two DMs (Myself and another) shared many of the same houserules but differed on others, so while in MY game the houserule was viable (but never used) the DM of the other game (to which I play) didn't, hence its never-being-used. If it WAS, this conversation might not be happening, but each DM sets his or her own comfort level...

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

Really, though, can you expect to make an "I Hate!" thread without people coming in to defend it?

Of course not. That's half the point of a messageboard, I think.

For me, it didn't work out well. I have this thing about RPGs. I had some not-fun experiences a long time ago and didn't play for a while, and I've since said that there's no point in playing if it isn't any fun. So my major concern when I'm gaming is Fun First. Stars died, planets aligned, and my group had a whizz-poor time with parts of the game. Not that it was all bad. We had lots and lots of fun. It just upset ME that parts of the game were seriously upsetting my PLAYERS and that I had to go through and start changing things on the fly to make it work.

And it seemed like alot of people were summing things up to: "PC death is good and makes for superior gaming." "If you use Jedi and Lightsabers, you're playing incorrectly." and "The system is great, you're all just whining and overreacting ... the proof is in the math."

It's not unfixable. It's not a bad game. Just wasn't for us, and I think there are some strong reasons why and that those reasons DO stand up under scrutiny and aren't the wild imaginings of somebody with freakish dice.

But I'm the same way about defending the Wealth mechanic from d20Modern for some reason. Ocassionally it's all I can do not to just go crazy and say: "You're a poopie-head! There, I said it!"



--fje

 

[Remathilis]

Really, though, can you expect to make an "I Hate!" thread without people coming in to defend it?

Not really. I wanted to see if I was the exception or the rule though.

Looks like its actually pretty even...

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

And it seemed like alot of people were summing things up to: "PC death is good and makes for superior gaming." "If you use Jedi and Lightsabers, you're playing incorrectly." and "The system is great, you're all just whining and overreacting ... the proof is in the math."

Well, if I came off like that, its not actually what I meant. But hey, you guys had points that sounded just as insane.

In all honesty, everytime I see a thread with people that have had bad experiences with SWd20, I get the urge to put a game together to try to show them a different experience. It does look like both viewpoints are about even, but it'd be nice if everyone was having fun with it instead of having trouble.

Thankfully, though, its not hard to alter things just slightly to get the fixes that work for you. I really do like the "lose a limb" idea, as well as a bunch of others suggested. So I'll keep 'em in mind for when I crit four PCs with on BBEG.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

In all honesty, everytime I see a thread with people that have had bad experiences with SWd20, I get the urge to put a game together to try to show them a different experience. It does look like both viewpoints are about even, but it'd be nice if everyone was having fun with it instead of having trouble.

And that's the funny thing, of course.

I'm playing the game, and I see these glaring (to me) mechanical holes in it (especially the attack / defense discrepency). They largely don't affect me because my character - a Soldier / Scoundrel - has a tendency to hang back and play sniper, pulling cover whenever I can get it. I'm, therefore, not the one getting hit.

But I watch my wife (playing a Jedi Guardian), a good friend (playing a Jedi Counselor), and another good friend (playing a Scoundrel who has a tendency to get close to the action) get ripped apart very, very quickly.

I see these glaring mechanical holes, I know that there's *some* way to fix them if only I could find it.

And yet, I'm having a blast playing.

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

Both of our PC deaths in the SWd20 game actually happened due to having our VP chewed through, rather than dropping to a sudden crit; the thing that really annoyed me was that we later found out we died for nothing. We did have a lot of people drop due to sudden crits, but no one actually died that way. We also had a Jedi super-puncher who did gobs of damage with a high threat range.

I don't really mind the SWd20 VP/WP system. There are bigger holes than that (Attack/Defense lopsidedness, Stun being broken, etc.), and I've played in d20 games with worse damage/healing mechanics (d20 WoT, anyone?). However, I wouldn't switch to it unless playing something like Spycraft.

Brad

 

[genshou]

And that's the funny thing, of course.

I'm playing the game, and I see these glaring (to me) mechanical holes in it (especially the attack / defense discrepency). They largely don't affect me because my character - a Soldier / Scoundrel - has a tendency to hang back and play sniper, pulling cover whenever I can get it. I'm, therefore, not the one getting hit.

But I watch my wife (playing a Jedi Guardian), a good friend (playing a Jedi Counselor), and another good friend (playing a Scoundrel who has a tendency to get close to the action) get ripped apart very, very quickly.

I see these glaring mechanical holes, I know that there's *some* way to fix them if only I could find it.

And yet, I'm having a blast playing.

This is the only argument I haven't figured out the point of yet. In D&D, higher-level characters tend to hit each other more frequently. How does SWd20 change this?

It doesn't. Characters get "hit," characters take "damage."

So what's the problem with that? I'm not understanding where your complaints are coming from.