Its Official: I HATE Vitality/Wound. You?

[Remathilis]

What breaks Jedi is Battlemind and Enhance Ability (especially Dex with Finesse, which is doubling up on Def and AB). The 5th level Guardian I illustrated earlier can take 10 on both of those skills before a battle begins and net a +5 bonus to attacks. So you're going from, say, +5 (BAB) + 3 (Dex) = +8 to +5 (BAB) +5 (Dex) + 3 (Force) for +13 ... That's a REALLY hefty jump. That's not out of the ordinary, either. You can take 10 on those skills, so you can pretty much always hit that number before a combat begins.

Here me out on this

Jedi Guardian 9, 18 dex, 16 Con, 10 mod in battlemind, enhance ability. Weapon Finesse, Form IV Mastery*, Weapon Focus (LS), Lightsaber Def

Buff Round: Jedi takes 10 in BM/EA (or rolls adequately). +4 Dex, +3 to Hit. (8 vit)

Jedi Buff Stats: Atk + +20/+15 (+ 9/+4 BAB, +6 Dex, +1 WF, +1 own lightsaber, +3 BM) 3d8+9 (Form IV, holding LS 2-H) Def 25 (+7 class, +6 Dex, +2 LSD)

Against his evil clone, he hits on a 5 or higher on his first attack, 10 or higher on his second. His minimum damage is 12 (2 wd), average is 22 (-6) and Max's out at 33 (-17).

If either his first or second attack is a threat, there is a good chance his opponent's toast. The same is as likely for him though. First Crit wins.

* Form IV Mastery (Heros Guide) Allows you to use your dex mod instead of strength mod to damage. Enhance ability thus, is granting a +2 bonus to atk/def and +3 to damage.

This formula can get sillier with Jedi Weapon Master (rapid strike or devastating strike), power attack, two-weapon fighting, etc.

So, is the problem with Enhance Ability, Lightsabers, Form IV, Weapon Finesse, Battlemind, Vitality/wound, or crits?

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

Why would you need to roll a fort save to stay conscious any time you take WP damage?

...because its part of the rules.

When you take any wound damage, you become fatigued. In addition, you must make a Fortitude saving throw(DC 5 + number of wounds points lost this round). If the save fails, the character is knocked out.

 

[Remathilis]

...because its part of the rules.

I found its occasionally prudent to deliberatly fail that save. If you're in wound and the opponent has more attacks to give (and there are sufficient other active targets) go down and hope he'll focus on the other guys with weapons and finish you off later.

 

[kenobi65]

So, is the problem with Enhance Ability, Lightsabers, Form IV, Weapon Finesse, Battlemind, Vitality/wound, or crits?

Heh, I think that about covers it.

Personal opinion: Lightsaber Form IV Mastery is ba-roken. Most Jedi builds I've seen are high-Dex / average Str anyway, so this form becomes a no-brainer.

Ultimately, what I think is broken isn't the VP/WP system, but the combo platter of:
A) The ability of Force-users, and Jedi in particular, to pump their attack modifiers through the ceiling
B) The abilty to create a wide critical threat range with a lightsaber (Improved Critical and weapon customization)
C) Jedi-type characters getting multiple bonus damage dice on their lightsabers.

All of this in combination gives you:
- High likelihood to score a critical threat
- High likelihood to confirm that threat
- High likelihood of doing enough damage on a critical hit to drop the target below -10

At least a Force-user has the opportunity to have taken the Dissipate Energy feat (and, if you're playing in a campaign like Remathilis describes, that's another no-brainer feat). It's the non-Jedi who gets a high-level Dark Jedi or Sith whomping on his butt with a lightsaber that's going to be next-to-defenseless.

What this all starts to remind me of is Magic: the Gathering. WotC puts out a bunch of cards that don't seem terribly potent on their own...but players quickly figure out that a particular combo is death on two wheels.

 

[eyebeams]

...because its part of the rules.

Forgot about that. In the varient I'm suggesting, drop it.

 

[wingsandsword]

Apparently my Star Wars RPG experiences vary wildly from some others.

1. I've never seen a Jedi take Improved Critical (or any other character for that matter), there are too many force-related feats they want to take, or useful non-force feats like Starship Operation or Heroic Surge. Also, in Star Wars a +8 BAB is a big deal, it's possible to be a full Jedi Knight and not even qualify for that feat.

2. I've never seen a Jedi take Form IV mastery, since most of my games are set during the Rebellion/New Republic era, fancy things like specific form masteries are lost.

3. Personalized/Customized weapons are extremely rare In My Experience, players rarely bother with it, and I only give them to a handful of major NPC's that they probably should not fight anyway.

4. Jedi PC's are about a whole lot more than just having a lightsaber with a big damage total and huge critical range, I take the "lightsaber syndrome" warning from Power of the Jedi very seriously in games I run: If you're playing your Jedi such that the character could not be played without a lightsaber, or without the Force, you're not playing a Jedi right. Jedi are about peace, about protecting order and justice, about seeking enlightenment, and about defending the weak and helpless. The lightsaber and the Force are tools to those ends, not the ends themselves.

Maybe I'm lucky to have a gaming group who thinks Star Wars is not about creating "character builds" and stacking piles of modifiers, that heroes die in battle, and are sometimes even seriously hurt (or maybe even killed) by lucky shots from random enemies, and understand that any battle can quickly turn fatal. Maybe The Force is With us in that we don't seem to have these maximum-damage criticals all over the place where 3d8 blasters are rolling maximum damage to kill 13 WP PC's.

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

4. Jedi PC's are about a whole lot more than just having a lightsaber with a big damage total and huge critical range, I take the "lightsaber syndrome" warning from Power of the Jedi very seriously in games I run: If you're playing your Jedi such that the character could not be played without a lightsaber, or without the Force, you're not playing a Jedi right. Jedi are about peace, about protecting order and justice, about seeking enlightenment, and about defending the weak and helpless. The lightsaber and the Force are tools to those ends, not the ends themselves.

The whole 'lightsaber syndrome' is something that's definitely worth pointing out. I know I fell into at with one of my favorite characters at one point. Ended up completely dropping the use of the lightsaber and the Force altogether for a good portion of the campaign, too.

I agree with you, though, and it should be no surprise that it seems like you and I have had very similar experiences. I've seen Improved Critical taken maybe twice...once by a Jedi, the other time by a Soldier. As for other feats...well, I agree there, too. Jedi are spread thin with Feats and Skills already, and it can be heard to pick up something that's purely combat related when there are much more Force-oriented choices that could help out more than Improved Critical would.

Also, Weapon modifications have happened, but they take up a lot of money and time, so they aren't common at all.

 

[kenobi65]

The whole 'lightsaber syndrome' is something that's definitely worth pointing out.

In Living Force, there's been a lot of debate over the "proper" play of Jedi PCs over the years, and there's a fair number of PCs that others have referred to as "Jedi thugs."

I may be off on this, but I think some of it stems from RPG players who have been heavily influenced by the "Knights of the Old Republic" video games, and view Jedi primarily as combat machines.

 

[Remathilis]

In Living Force, there's been a lot of debate over the "proper" play of Jedi PCs over the years, and there's a fair number of PCs that others have referred to as "Jedi thugs."

I may be off on this, but I think some of it stems from RPG players who have been heavily influenced by the "Knights of the Old Republic" video games, and view Jedi primarily as combat machines.

I'll admit that lightsaber syndome played into it somewhat (We had lightsaber envy, or the desire to play a Jedi just beacuse everyone else was one). However, as a group I will say we DID try to avoid combats as much as possible. Many had no active alternative (esp since Jedi have no real talent at stealth, and negociation only got us so far) and besides, all the best action scenes in SW were with Lightsabers (or starships).

KotOR was something our group all played, so maybe there is some influence there.

And yes, Form IV is BARQUE. Even toned down from its printed (non-errata) version (1 1/2 times dex, x2 to handed ) Form V (deflect Attack any shot that misses by 10(!) is equally as broken against anything that shoots blaster bolts and can't deflect itself.

 

[Remathilis]

Ultimately, what I think is broken isn't the VP/WP system, but the combo platter of:
A) The ability of Force-users, and Jedi in particular, to pump their attack modifiers through the ceiling
B) The abilty to create a wide critical threat range with a lightsaber (Improved Critical and weapon customization)
C) Jedi-type characters getting multiple bonus damage dice on their lightsabers.

All of this in combination gives you:
- High likelihood to score a critical threat
- High likelihood to confirm that threat
- High likelihood of doing enough damage on a critical hit to drop the target below -10.

Thats what I've been sayin, I just assumed the flaw was in that small pool of "wound" points, not the whole kit and ka-boodle.

The GM recently said Discipate Energy doesn't work on Lightsabers. Since there is no example of it working, I'm inclined to agree. However, that IS one less method of saving our butts form critical hell.

Though now at this point, I'm unsure how to fix the problem without scapping the whole thing.