Its Official: I HATE Vitality/Wound. You?

[HeapThaumaturgist]

VP/WP seems like one of those things where the fans can get rabbid about it.

But the basic problem with it as a system is it's one-sided.

It's a pretty obvious aspect of game mechanics that I'm pretty sure comes up in the DMG somewhere ... I think talking about roll-for-AC or something:

Anything that increases the randomness aspect of the game HURTS THE PLAYER CHARACTERS.

PCs FACE rolls more often than anything else in the game. They're on the recieving end of the dice many times every session, where-as even a recurring villian may only be in there for 20 total rounds.

If even 2.5% of all rolls are insta-WP hits, the number of times the PCs will face that compared to any other character is much higher. While an equal number 'per side' might get dished out, it's expected that PCs will remain through the game, correct?

Without some additional mechanic for "Extra Lives" or "Get Wounded But Not Dead", you just end up with more random PC deaths.

While "any fight can be lethal" might be a good thing, depending on genre, the fact that the lethality of that fight is more heavily weighted toward the random number generation and not the static number generation portions of the game is, IMHO, unfortunate.

SW is about Jedi and lightsabers. Without those two things, you're just playing a space opera set in the same universe. While that can be fun, if you ask Joe Random Dude On The Street what's cool about StarWars ... it'll be Jedi and Lightsabers.

People want to play Jedi games. Hell, -I- want to play Jedi games, and I usually shy away from playing with the big IP of a system/setting/game. If the game mechanics make playing with Jedi and lightsabers unfeasible, then there's a problem with the mechanics for the game.

This isn't to say that nothing but Jedi should be playable, but if Jedi aren't playable ...

After running an all-Jedi Tales of the Jedi game ... yea, Jedi aren't really playable.

My players wanted Jedi. My players wanted lightsabers and they wanted to fight OTHER guys with Lightsabers.

That couldn't happen. VP/WP + Lightsabers + Jedi Powers = Dead/Dying PCs. Dead/Dying Jedi PCs = Not Fun.

I don't think the answer to "The Problems With VP/WP" should be: "Dude, you shouldn't be playing with Jedi and Lightsabers."

That would be like: "Dude, you can't play RAMBO: THE RPG with guns! You'll have alot of dead PCs. Everybody should have knives and sticks. Guns are supposed to be lethal!"

--fje

 

[ThoughtBubble]

You know, I never was fond of the Vorpral enchantment. It did tend to end things too quickly on a crit and was fairly useless the rest of the time.

The VP/WP system isn't something I've used much of in play, but I do like it theoretically. The real problems come in when some of the other factors stack.

For example, in D20 Modern, they reccomend (highly reccomend) against increasing the crit range on a weapon. Why? Crits are dangerous. It makes the straight porting of weapons from D&D into Urban Arcana a little weird. Now there are weapons with x3 crits and much larger crit ranges. All of which work very well to overwhelm the MDT.

Likewize, I'd guess a similar thing happens in the starwars situation.
First we have the VP/WP system. Plenty of hits, but not so many of the ones that really matter.

Then we have a special case weapon that ignores the primary form of WP defense
(lightsablers go through armor). This is a relatively minor thing, unless you have lightsaber action in the game. What? Lightsabers are the signature weapon of the series? So maybe having them ignore armor is a bad idea.

Then we add the ability to increase crit ranges from several sources, which we know from D20 Modern's example is a dangerous thing to do, and all of our gut impluses are saying is a bad idea. And how did all these 19-20 crit range weapons get in here?

Then we add in the ability to make the aforementioned weapons do more damage. And we do that again, and again, as the jedi levels. You know, after throwing around 4D8 points of damage into that lightsaber, does having 4 points of DR even count as weakening the attack anymore? Maybe we could just say that the lightsaber cuts through the armor to deliver the remaining 3D8 points of damage.

So, am I at all surprized that this combination of factors causes jedi wielding lightsabers who improve their critical range to become wielders of unholy death? No, not really. Some decisions were made that seem to disagree with the VP/WP choice.

It seems like this stems from successfully hitting a few target situations well, and then extentions to the system pushing a bit much in either direction.

So, now that I've concluded my armchair designer look over, I just want to ask one question: Has anyone played in a game where characters commonly wore armor?

Now, what we need are some crit mitigation measures.

 

[Kesh]

The first time I read Green Ronin's Blue Rose rules, I thought, "This is perfect for Star Wars!" The True20 ruleset might be worth looking into, or at least the damage save portion, if you're not happy with VP/WP.

 

[ForceUser]

The first time I read Green Ronin's Blue Rose rules, I thought, "This is perfect for Star Wars!" The True20 ruleset might be worth looking into, or at least the damage save portion, if you're not happy with VP/WP.

Blue Rose seems really cool. I wish it had been around last year when I could have used it.

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

After running an all-Jedi Tales of the Jedi game ... yea, Jedi aren't really playable.

My players wanted Jedi. My players wanted lightsabers and they wanted to fight OTHER guys with Lightsabers.

That couldn't happen. VP/WP + Lightsabers + Jedi Powers = Dead/Dying PCs. Dead/Dying Jedi PCs = Not Fun.

Except that Jedi ARE playable. I've run MULTIPLE TotJ era all-Jedi games. But you have to understand the Era. The Jedi are NOT fighting others with lightsabers. The Sith have other weapons like Sith Swords. They aren't just Dark Jedi in that time period.

Also, looking at the comics...that's how things worked in that era. When they DO fight others with lightsaber, Jedi drop. You CAN fight others with lightsabers, but just like in everything Star Wars, you're taking a very large risk.

 

[Psion]

Your'e not alone. I think the vitality/wound system is far inferior to regular hit points.

I think VP/WP solves four conceptual problems with HP systems. But one of those features is precisely what he is complaining about, so it's a matter of wants and needs.

 

[The Shaman]

I think VP/WP solves four conceptual problems with HP systems.

And those are?

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

So, now that I've concluded my armchair designer look over, I just want to ask one question: Has anyone played in a game where characters commonly wore armor?

Yes. The players were Imperial soldiers, and all but one of them wore some kind of armor. Those little points of DR were insanely helpful when they got ambushed. Obviously, a situation where running can't be done...but they used cover, hid, and fired from safe positions.

One thing the VP/WP system does is encourages the use of tactics(cover, etc) much more than HP. Whether this is good or not will be up to the individual group, but I've found it to be great.

 

[Pbartender]

So, now that I've concluded my armchair designer look over, I just want to ask one question: Has anyone played in a game where characters commonly wore armor?

Every Spycraft Game I've played featured lots of characters who wore as much armor as possible, when available... Usually the amount worn was limited by its conspicuousness, and not by its uselessness.

Except that Jedi ARE playable. I've run MULTIPLE TotJ era all-Jedi games. But you have to understand the Era. The Jedi are NOT fighting others with lightsabers. The Sith have other weapons like Sith Swords. They aren't just Dark Jedi in that time period.

Incidentally, my group is getting ready to play a Star Wars game using the new Spycraft 2.0 rules... One player has a great idea for a gunslinging Force-user who blocks blaster bolts not with a lightsaber, but by shooting them down with his own blaster pistols.

I thought it was a pretty cool idea, if we can find a way to make it work.

 

[tsadkiel]

If VP/WP were a person instead of a game mechanic, I would punch it in the face. When I was running Star Wars, we had one PC Jedi, who wasn't crit-optimized at all. And because it was Star Wars, I wanted lightsaber duels like in the movies, so I threw in the occasional Dark Jedi (also not crit-optimized), placed them in interesting and dynamic settings, and did everything I could t make the fight memorable. And every single time, the fight ended with a critical hit on the first round. I was unhappy and the players were unhappy, because none of the promised cool ever materialized. It wasn't like the movies at all.

I know my experience is atypical, and fairly unlikely, but it can happen. And when it does happen, it is very, very lame.