Its Official: I HATE Vitality/Wound. You?

[Drowbane]

Here is the kicker. Critical hits ignore your vitality points and go straight to wound. It doesn't matter if you have 1 vitality or 1,000, the damage is straight to wound.

Your Wound pool never increases cept by feats like toughness or increasing your con score.
Most normal beings have a wound pool of 1-20. Typical weapons do blaster 3d6 damage, lightsabers can do up to 6d8 (!).
Its descently easy to improve your threat range in both SWd20 and D&D. Lightsabers with a threat of 16-20 is not uncommon....

At risk of nit-picking... Lightsabers have a 19-20 Crit, and SWd20's Imp. Crit feat only improves that to 18-20. And there is (thankfully!!) no such thing as a Keen Lightsaber.

Oh yeah, did anyone else know that you can use a force point to
confirm a crit if you use the force on an attack dice? This means usually, your defense bonus is nothing more than a speed bump for a dedicated assassin. Same goes for a scoundrel's "lucky" class ability....

I must've missed that part in the book... do you have a pg # to back up this wild claim? I've been playing SWd20 (off and on) since it came out in 01.

While this all might be realistic and even in line with the SW mindset, it makes for TERRIBLE gaming IMHO. It hinges all fights not really on skill but on the blind luck of "who gets the first 20". An Ewok can kill Darth Vader with a simple high roll or two. Getting critted also means your (effectively) out of the game for the rest of the combat. Stormtrooper lucks out and rolls a 20 + confirm? Your 10th level Jedi is laying on the ground for an entire combat, even (and especially) before he could even act...

Yep, explains how the Emperor kills 3 out of 4 Jedi Masters during the 1st rnd of combat in Episode III... (come on, if you haven't seen it by now... you deserve the SPOILER!)...

While HP is unrealistic (20th level fighter vs. 200 goblins. Guess who wins?) it does do two things correctly: sacrifices realism for playability and protrays PCs and HEROES, not some dudes. My fighter will be in a world of hurt from a great-axe crit from that raging orc, but chances are he'll have enough HP to either retreat or survive long enought to finish the orc. In V/WP? the Fighter's sausage.

Considering that V/Wnd weapons do NOT do x3 or x4 dmg... and most Fighters (should IMO at least) strive to have a 16+ Con... one crit from a Great Axe isn't so bad. Might wipe the party elf-wizard though

My rant is done. Anyone else want to share horror stories of V/WP or try to convince me my group is more lucky than normal with those 20? I like the idea in concept, but the mounds of dead character sheets I've seen leave me on the fence about it in practice...

I think you're seriously over-stating things... unless of course your DM foolishly(!!) allows the D&D version of Imp-Crit... Most SW weapons only crit on a 20 (or 19-20 with Imp Crit) and the ALMIGHTY lightsaber crits on a 19-20 or 18-20 (again with Imp Crit). And I noticed you forgot to mention that (revised SWd20 book at least) armor gives DR vs Crit dmg...

That said, I am semi-sympathetic with your plight.

One of my long time friends and favorite DMs (some call him Talath) ran a short campaign last year (year before that?) that he called Tales of the Samurai. It was done with the Generic Classes from UA, and with the V/Wnd system. Anyways, during this rediculously tough fights vs the BBEG... the party bard-wanna-be Crits and slays the BBEG with some crappy club-music-instrument-thing... most ignoble death ever! Thats like a Bard walking up to (insert evil badass from your favorite setting here) and killing him with a lucky hit to the head with a fricking lute.

Anyways...

SWd20's biggest flaw isn't the Vit/Wnd system... its the classes.

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

Maybe there should be a save involved if a crit will kill a person? Maybe failure means death, success means reduced to unconscious?

This issue sorta comes up in our regular D&D games; it's how common you want death to be and what you're willing to accept. Personally, I'm not a big fan of casting raise dead on a routine basis. I'd rather have death be a rare occurence and save the returning of life for those special times. So we have house rules to minimize the chances of death. The result is that characters rarely die and when they do, they can use special points to "cheat death" so to speak. I like that better than the alternative. You just have to make sure it's not easy to cheat death and that it comes with some kind of cost, otherwise characters will start running around like Ramno.

 

[Remathilis]

At risk of nit-picking... Lightsabers have a 19-20 Crit, and SWd20's Imp. Crit feat only improves that to 18-20. And there is (thankfully!!) no such thing as a Keen Lightsaber.

Arms and Equipment gives rules for customizing lightsabers. Its expensive and time consumeing, but everyone has ranks in Craft: Lightsaber (needed to make the cursed thing for your trials) so its become the de-facto improvement.

Oh yeah; Jedi Weapon Master PrC has a occasionally used technique that can double LS threats. Its full round and provokes and AoO, but a useful gambit if you need someone down ASAP.

I must've missed that part in the book... do you have a pg # to back up this wild claim? I've been playing SWd20 (off and on) since it came out in 01.

A Force Point Spent in the beginning of the round affects all d20 rolls for that round, including confirms. Lucky can re-roll any d20 roll, even missed confirms.

Yep, explains how the Emperor kills 3 out of 4 Jedi Masters during the 1st rnd of combat in Episode III... (come on, if you haven't seen it by now... you deserve the SPOILER!)...

Fair enough.

Considering that V/Wnd weapons do NOT do x3 or x4 dmg... and most Fighters (should IMO at least) strive to have a 16+ Con... one crit from a Great Axe isn't so bad. Might wipe the party elf-wizard though

My PC had a 16 con and typically was dropped to -4 in one crit.

I think you're seriously over-stating things... unless of course your DM foolishly(!!) allows the D&D version of Imp-Crit... Most SW weapons only crit on a 20 (or 19-20 with Imp Crit) and the ALMIGHTY lightsaber crits on a 19-20 or 18-20 (again with Imp Crit). And I noticed you forgot to mention that (revised SWd20 book at least) armor gives DR vs Crit dmg...

Lightsabers Ignore Armor. Only Soldiers have proficiency in armor without taking the feats.

That said, I am semi-sympathetic with your plight.

One of my long time friends and favorite DMs (some call him Talath) ran a short campaign last year (year before that?) that he called Tales of the Samurai. It was done with the Generic Classes from UA, and with the V/Wnd system. Anyways, during this rediculously tough fights vs the BBEG... the party bard-wanna-be Crits and slays the BBEG with some crappy club-music-instrument-thing... most ignoble death ever! Thats like a Bard walking up to (insert evil badass from your favorite setting here) and killing him with a lucky hit to the head with a fricking lute.

Anyways...

We ran Tempest Feud. During the last fight with the Boromu Clan, one of the Rodians got (we watched the dice) 3 confirmed crits! Three downed Jedi from an essentially random encounter. The rodian ran off, presumably to become General Grievous

SWd20's biggest flaw isn't the Vit/Wnd system... its the classes.

V/WP is exasperated by lots of other inconsitancies in the ruleset (Jedi still increase LS damage to all hits, but poor scoundrels lost Sneak attack for Precise atk?) And we have threatened to put our DM's "white die" in the oven before, but I dunno.

And yes, the death toll is smaller than "mounds". In a year of playing, we've accumulated 6 dead PCs. (one who failed a stable check, one who fell off a balcony, one who died in Order 66, One who was Coup-de-Gras'd, and some lucky crits before the loose-an-arm rule). However, the number of (negative and stable) is shocking.

I'm just glad to know I'm not alone in this. Thanks.

 

[UniversalMonster]

Your'e not alone. I think the vitality/wound system is far inferior to regular hit points. It makes it less cinematic, less fun, and shoehorns the players into using weenie tactics to avoid losing their characters (avoiding battles and such may seen more sophisticated to some people, but I like my action and adventure to have.. action and adventure. Mayhem.)

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

Arms and Equipment gives rules for customizing lightsabers. Its expensive and time consumeing, but everyone has ranks in Craft: Lightsaber (needed to make the cursed thing for your trials) so its become the de-facto improvement.

Oh yeah; Jedi Weapon Master PrC has a occasionally used technique that can double LS threats. Its full round and provokes and AoO, but a useful gambit if you need someone down ASAP.

Those aren't problems with VP/WP. In fact, those aren't problems at all. If a character is willing to spend the amount of time/money/levels in those options, they SHOULD be critting more often than usual. However, not EVERYONE is going to be using those.

First off, opponents should not all have lightsabers. Lightsaber ARE DEADLY. I'm running a Tales of the Jedi Era game right now, and the PCs have barely encountered ANY opponenet with a lightsaber because it will tear them apart if that's the only weapon they encounter.

And also...why would Jedi Weapon Master affect the PCs? Remember, mooks don't have Vitality, so crits really don't matter again them. And if the PCs are fighting against Jedi, then you're playing a non-standard style game in the first place.

A Force Point Spent in the beginning of the round affects all d20 rolls for that round, including confirms. Lucky can re-roll any d20 roll, even missed confirms.

A Jedi that invests other class levels in non-Jedi classes is going to take a big hit when it comes to Defense, Force Skills, and Class Abilities. Maybe it evens out, but IME, class-dipping for abilities is a very bad idea for Jedi, as it weakens you when it comes to using the Force.

Lightsabers Ignore Armor. Only Soldiers have proficiency in armor without taking the feats.

Again, not everyone should have lightsabers. If they do(and I mean both PCs and opponents) then you're asking for trouble in the first place. The game is not all about lightsabers.

Of course, since you're looking at outside options, there ARE armour types that lightsaber hace trouble with. If lightsabers are extremely common, people will start wearing Cortosis-laced armor to protect themselves.

And yes, the death toll is smaller than "mounds". In a year of playing, we've accumulated 6 dead PCs. (one who failed a stable check, one who fell off a balcony, one who died in Order 66, One who was Coup-de-Gras'd, and some lucky crits before the loose-an-arm rule). However, the number of (negative and stable) is shocking.

Again, the number is 'shocking' because Star Wars wasn't made for the kind of straight up fights that D&D is. Honestly, Tempest Feud ain't the best module in the world. It DOES give more of a D&D feel to Star Wars, and that doesn't work well.

The VP/WP system works extremely well in emulating the movies, and that's what the game is all about. Straight up fights are extremely uncommon, simply because all the weapons are dangerous. Its not like D&D, where a dagger is just a little dagger. Vibroblades can kill...its why they're illegal on most worlds. Same with blasters. They pack a serious punch, hence why they're usually licensed, if not straight up illegal.

Of course, if it just doesn't mesh with your style, its good that you've found a way to adapt things...but it is definitely a style thing. The system is perfect for Star Wars, and, for me at least, a very nice change from D&D.

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

Your'e not alone. I think the vitality/wound system is far inferior to regular hit points. It makes it less cinematic, less fun, and shoehorns the players into using weenie tactics to avoid losing their characters (avoiding battles and such may seen more sophisticated to some people, but I like my action and adventure to have.. action and adventure. Mayhem.)

I can't speak for other systems that use VP/WP, but the one in question is Star Wars...and, again, look at the movies. People run from fights. They avoid battles. There IS action and adventure, but the characters do their best to make sure they have the advantage and don't get shot, simply due to how dangerous a simple blaster can be.

 

[Remathilis]

I can't speak for other systems that use VP/WP, but the one in question is Star Wars...and, again, look at the movies. People run from fights. They avoid battles. There IS action and adventure, but the characters do their best to make sure they have the advantage and don't get shot, simply due to how dangerous a simple blaster can be.

Maybe we're playing SW the wrong way, but one of the biggest draws we have toward the setting has been Lightsaber duels. Obi/Qui vs Maul, Anakin/Obi vs Dooku, Vader vs Luke, Vader vs Obi, Yoda vs. Palpy. You can argue each of these ended in a crit (or three) but these were exciting combats, many lasted a few minutes and allowed the heroes to do something grand (or at least look cool before going down).

We have one major combat per game, (not counting weenie PC vs NPC classed goons) but it seems that the minute we're in a fight that is remotely challenging (and not cleaving goons) bam! the crits turn our party in hamburger. It means the DM can only have one major encounter and that bad guy BETTER not actively engage the PCs at all if you want to keep him for more than a combat...

Cinematic? Probably. Annoying for the guy dropped in the first hit of combat before he can act and sits around for the next 20 minutes? Definitely.
4)

 

[Remathilis]

Those aren't problems with VP/WP. In fact, those aren't problems at all. If a character is willing to spend the amount of time/money/levels in those options, they SHOULD be critting more often than usual. However, not EVERYONE is going to be using those.

First off, opponents should not all have lightsabers. Lightsaber ARE DEADLY. I'm running a Tales of the Jedi Era game right now, and the PCs have barely encountered ANY opponenet with a lightsaber because it will tear them apart if that's the only weapon they encounter.

And also...why would Jedi Weapon Master affect the PCs? Remember, mooks don't have Vitality, so crits really don't matter again them. And if the PCs are fighting against Jedi, then you're playing a non-standard style game in the first place.

A Jedi that invests other class levels in non-Jedi classes is going to take a big hit when it comes to Defense, Force Skills, and Class Abilities. Maybe it evens out, but IME, class-dipping for abilities is a very bad idea for Jedi, as it weakens you when it comes to using the Force.

Again, not everyone should have lightsabers. If they do(and I mean both PCs and opponents) then you're asking for trouble in the first place. The game is not all about lightsabers.

Of course, since you're looking at outside options, there ARE armour types that lightsaber hace trouble with. If lightsabers are extremely common, people will start wearing Cortosis-laced armor to protect themselves.

Again, the number is 'shocking' because Star Wars wasn't made for the kind of straight up fights that D&D is. Honestly, Tempest Feud ain't the best module in the world. It DOES give more of a D&D feel to Star Wars, and that doesn't work well.

The VP/WP system works extremely well in emulating the movies, and that's what the game is all about. Straight up fights are extremely uncommon, simply because all the weapons are dangerous. Its not like D&D, where a dagger is just a little dagger. Vibroblades can kill...its why they're illegal on most worlds. Same with blasters. They pack a serious punch, hence why they're usually licensed, if not straight up illegal.

Of course, if it just doesn't mesh with your style, its good that you've found a way to adapt things...but it is definitely a style thing. The system is perfect for Star Wars, and, for me at least, a very nice change from D&D.

No, we started fighting Dark Jedi right at about the time nothing (even Krayt Dragons) could withstand a lightsaber. The JWM is a PC trick used sparringly, but much to the dismay of the DM. Blasters are really a joke to HL Jedi (deflect def + Atk?) and we could throttle Droideka at 6th level.

We had a couple Pcs start as non Jedi and become Jedi, hence Jedi with Lucky.

Perhaps though you've hit on something deeper though: A mostly Jedi group has no real challenge but other Dark Jedi, which turns the combats into the roullette wheel of 20s. So is this a problem with Jedi, Lightsabers, or unnatural Crits? Meditate on this, I will.

 

[UniversalMonster]

Characters really don't usually run from fights in Star Wars. Obi Wan dives through a *closed* 30th story window at a droid.. he drops down directly on top of General Grievous and his 30 guards armed with his light saber and no backup! In Star Wars, characters just charge in and battle, and they don't snipe from a distance or weenie around things. Sometimes they do run, sure. I would say- "after their hit points are low"- but the default - once a fight is on- is to commit to the kick-ass battle.

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

Star Wars without light sabres is like peanut butter without jelly.