James Wyatt + FR!?

[3catcircus]

Rebooting the setting to junk Elminster, and his cronies, and Drizzt, and his cronies, and all the other people that solve all the PC's problems, or randomly show up to stomp a mudhole in the plans of Evil PC's sounds like a good thing to me.

And I thought Elminster and Drizzt were supposed to stay? Doesn't sound like a solution for you .

And really, isn't it up to the DM and the players to make themselves the heroes? If the DM has the PCs playing bellhop to NPCs, then he isn't doing his job.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Yeah, that describes the Realms as we knew them alright.

 

[3catcircus]

All of this talk of the realms needing a reboot to get rid of all of the NPCs, deities, etc. seems to me to be a problem of the players and not of the game.

As others have mentioned - so what if there are tons of deities? All of our real-world religions have tons of deities (or the same deity with different names). The average person living in ancient Rome didn't give a hoot about deities worshiped by the average person living in ancient India.

All of those tons of ancient civilizations and wars and what-not? Yep - we are constantly finding stuff buried in our own real world.

All of those high level NPCs? Yep - we've got all of these world leaders running around doing stuff, yet not a one of them is gonna stop the local shoplifter or rapist...

Bottom line - the realms are there for the players and DM to use what they want and ignore or discard the rest - they don't need WotC doing it for them.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

Bottom line - the realms are there for the players and DM to use what they want and ignore or discard the rest - they don't need WotC doing it for them.

Until you realize there is this thing called Living Forgotten Realms coming down the line. Your suggestion is not even close to an option then.

 

[rounser]

Eberron's system WORKED.

Not even close. By making the claim "magic makes sense here", they've painted themselves into an even bigger corner than your quibbles about magic item profligation. If you stop and explore the implications of magic on a world to the very end of their tether, you will soon wish you hadn't, because the result will be alien to the extreme.

Your players are very, very selective in what they pick out as nitpicks. The effect of a mere fly or invisibility spell, or the fact that trolls and giants are wandering the wilderness quickly turn a scientific, logical approach to D&D's implications into Bizarro World.

There was a reason for everything to work the way it did.

I'm sorry, but IMO this is complete bollocks. Eberron makes a token concession or two, then pretends "job done". That would have been okay, but then they go and advertise that they've taken care of the problem. This is worse than not addressing the issue at all, because it clearly doesn't address the issue in more than a token manner, and we've taken the magic out of magic by making low level magic ubiquitous. Magic's supposed to be mysterious and magical, not a mundane, everyday part of society powering trains and flying taxis. When FR does the flying ships it makes sure they're someplace far away from where 99% of campaigns are set, increasing the sensawunda factor. Magic's common enough in D&D without using Eberron's "solution". No wonder people turn to psionics to get their "magical magic" fix.

And it didn't feel nearly as clunky as "You know those evil wizards that want to conquer everyone? Yeah, well....they now have item shops in almost every city in the world. People forgave them and they moved in last week. You didn't notice? Sorry."

If it's a choice between a retcon on a setting with it's heart in the right place and a setting heart based on design ideology soapboxes, marketing checklists, incoherent genre combinations and "attitude", I'll take the former. FR comes across as Itchy & Scratchy to Eberron's Poochy.

Besides, they aren't staring at the paint and making up a story around that. They are instead saying "What's the most interesting ideas we can come up with to make D&D easier to play in and more fun to play in?

If you're talking crunch uber alles, then yes, that's arguably correct, and a path that has to be gone down to a degree to make the game playable. It's probably best not to extend that philosophy too far into setting territory, though.

Alright, now that we know the answer to that, what changes do we need to make to FR to make sure that all of these things are true in that world?" And they are trying to do it without pulling a Highlander 2: "Of course the immortals were ALWAYS aliens."

A retcon is easily handwaved; a can of worms opened at the heart of the setting's design philosophy less so.

 

[Turjan]

And really, isn't it up to the DM and the players to make themselves the heroes? If the DM has the PCs playing bellhop to NPCs, then he isn't doing his job.

You don't have to tell me. I don't have problems with those guys. I could tell you what Elminster is in my personal version of the FR . But I don't want to turn this thread into one of those pointless Elminster debates.

 

[Turjan]

Until you realize there is this thing called Living Forgotten Realms coming down the line. Your suggestion is not even close to an option then.

Why? Is there a reason why your personal capmaign must follow the guideline of some Living Forgotten Realms?

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

Why? Is there a reason why your personal capmaign must follow the guideline of some Living Forgotten Realms?

My personal "capmaign" has nothing to do with . . .

they don't need WotC doing it for them.

Bring a Living Campaign into a setting and the publisher immediately can no longer rely on "let the player and DM work it out". Players and DMs of Living FR need WotC to do it for them, to present an easily approachable, easily understandable base that 30,000 gamers around the planet can all equally work with, no questions asked.

 

[Turjan]

Bring a Living Campaign into a setting and the publisher immediately can no longer rely on "let the player and DM work it out". Players and DMs of Living FR need WotC to do it for them, to present an easily approachable, easily understandable base that 30,000 gamers around the planet can all equally work with, no questions asked.

Living Greyhawk worked on a regional basis. There was not that much to learn for an individual group. Your playground was pretty much given by where you lived and, naturally, very limited. In FR terms this would mean that you would have to learn something about Amn. Forget about the rest.

And, personally, I know more people who played in Greyhawk but not in the Living Campaign than others. Which were not bound by any "Living Campaign" developments, anyway. And had a hard time hearing about them.

Edit: But Greyhawk is not a good example. The FR will always have their novels, which have a much larger influence than any Living Campaign could ever have. They will never be "simple".

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

Living Greyhawk worked on a regional basis. There was not that much to learn for an individual group. Your playground was pretty much given by where you lived and, naturally, very limited. In FR terms this would mean that you would have to learn something about Amn. Forget about the rest.

You forgot that Living Greyhawk had Core adventures, which were set anywhere and everywhere on the continent, and could be played by anyone in the world no matter where they lived. Living FR will also have such Core adventures.

However, the regional breakdown of LG would be relevant if Living FR was going to work that way.

It won't.

Anyone playing Living FR will be able to play any region's adventure no matter where they live in the world.